WATCH: Matter of Fact Listening Tour: 'To Be An American'
Soledad O’Brien Hosts 'To Be an American: Identity, Race and Justice'
FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. SOLEDAD: LET’S START AT THE BEGINNING. >> AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS. >> WE LIVE IN A GREAT COUNTRY. >> FREEDOM. >> PATRIOTISM. SOLEDAD: WE ARE GOING TO THE ROOT OF THE CHALLENGE WE FACE. >> ONE NATION UNDER GOD. >> I’M A SECOND-CLASS CITIZEN. >> IT’S NOT ABOUT THE FLAG. >> YOU HAVE TO DEFEND IT. >> PEOPLE FOUGHT AND DIED ABOUT IT. >> IT’S NOT ABOUT THE MILITARY. SOLEDAD: WE ARE GOING TO LISTEN, EVEN WHEN THE TALK TURNS UNCOMFORTABLE. >> IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT HERE, LEAVE. >> UNTIL BLACK LIVES MATTER, NOT ALL LIVES ARE MATTERING. SOLEDAD: WE ARE GOING TO TAKE IN THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS, AIM FOR A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE VIEWPOINTS OF OTHERS. >> DON’T TELL ME I HAVE TO LIVE MY LIFE LIKE YOU. >> THEY TAKE OVER. >> YOU HAVE THIS HISTORY. >> INDIVISIBLE. >> BEATING PEOPLE WITH THE FLAG. >> BUT THE COUNTRY DOESN’T LOVE YOU BACK. >> WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. ♪ I’M SOLEDAD O’BRIEN. WELCOME TO THE MATTER OF FACT LISTENING TOUR. THE AMERICAN FLAG IS A POTENT SYMBOL THAT TRIGGERS STRONG FEELINGS. IT EVOKES EVERYTHING FROM PRIDE TO PROTEST, DUTY TO DISILLUSIONMENT, ALLEGIANCE TO AGONY. THIS SHOW EXPLORES ALL OF IT AS WE TRY TO UNDERSTAND MORE DEARLY -- MORE CLEARLY WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN. LAST FALL, YOU JOINED US AS THE LISTENING TOUR TOOK UP THE ISSUES OF RACE AND SOCIAL JUSTICE, STARTING WITH BIAS. THAT SPECIAL EVENT, THE HARD TRUTH ABOUT BIAS AND YOUR RESPONSE TO IT, PUSHED US TO DO MORE, PUSHED US TO LOOK MORE CRITICALLY AT OUR AMERICAN REALITY. OUR NATION IS BECOMING IRREVERSIBLY DIVERSE, BUT DOES THAT ALSO MEAN WE ARE IRREVERSIBLY DIVIDED? OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT JESSICA GOMEZ SET ACROSS A ROAD TRIP FROM DENVER TO ST. LOUIS, TO FIND OUT WHAT PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT THEIR AMERICAN IDENTITY. JESSICA: WE STARTED OUR JOURNEY IN DENVER, COLORADO, WHERE THE SNOW WAS MELTING UNDER THE SHADOWS OF THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS. ALMOST TIME FOR BASEBALL SEASON. WE MET LAURA PICKING UP HER SON AT PRACTICE. ARE YOU TIRED? >> YEAH. >> WE WILL HAVE THE MARINADE. JESSICA: THEY INVITED US HOME FOR DINNER, WHERE WE LEARNED THIS AMERICAN FAMILY IS MADE UP OF A MULTITUDE OF CULTURES. >> IT’S A PERSIAN LAST NAME. MY HUSBAND IS HALF MEXICAN, HALF PERSIAN. I’M MEXICAN-AMERICAN. >> THANK YOU FOR THE NOURISHMENT OF THIS FOOD. AMEN. JESSICA: WE TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE AN AMERICAN. >> THE THOUGHT PROCESS IS WHEN YOU SAY AMERICA IS A MELTING POT, THAT IT ACTUALLY DEVALUES THE DIFFERENT CULTURES THAT DO MAKE UP AMERICA, AND THAT THE SALAD BOWL ANALOGY IS BETTER. >> YOU ARE STILL A TOMATO. YOU ARE A PIECE OF LETTUCE. YOU CAN STILL BE FRIENDS. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. JESSICA: AND WITH THAT, WE SET OUT TO LEARN WHERE OTHERS SEE THEMSELVES IN THIS SALAD BOWL THAT IS AMERICA. >> BY ME STEPPING IN THIS COUNTRY AND WALKING FREELY IN THIS COUNTRY, I’M AMERICAN. JESSICA: ON THE WAY OUT OF TOWN, WE POPPED IN ON ALEJANDRO FLORES MUNOZ, A GAY, UNDOCUMENTED MEXICAN IMMIGRANT. >> WE MAKE IT OF MASA AND PUT IT INSIDE THE TACO. JESSICA: THE DACA RECIPIENT WHOSE MOTHER BROUGHT HIM TO AMERICA WHEN HE WAS A LITTLE BOY IS OPENING A CLOUD KITCHEN FOR ONLINE DELIVERY ONLY. HIS BUSINESS, HE SAYS, MAKES HIM FEEL AMERICAN. >> I WANT TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE I CAN SHOWCASE THAT I AM PAYING TAXES, EMPLOYING PEOPLE, BUILDING A COMPANY. I DON’T THINK WORDS WILL SHOWCASE, AS MUCH AS ACTION. ♪ JESSICA: FROM COLORADO TO KANSAS. >> USED TO BE, LIKE, AMERICA WAS THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY, BUT NOW IT JUST FEELS LIKE IT’S A STRUGGLE JESSICA: WE STOPPED IN HAYES, WITH ITS WILD WEST ROOTS, MORE THAN TWO DOZEN CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, AND A LOT OF RED, WHITE, AND BLUE. >> IT’S HARD TO GET THE JOB, THE CAREER THAT YOU WANT BECAUSE, ONCE YOU FALL DOWN A WELL, IT’S REALLY HARD TO CLIMB OUT. JESSICA: TRISTON FRUMP, IN BETWEEN MANUFACTURING JOBS. A ROUGH CHILDHOOD, HE SAYS, GOT IN THE WAY OF HIS AMERICAN DREAM OF OWNING A CAR REPAIR SHOP. >> MY LIFE, IT’S ALWAYS BEEN LIKE YOU ARE A CERTAIN CLASS OF PERSON. AND WHEN PEOPLE PUT YOU DOWN OR PUT YOU IN THAT LABEL, IT’S REALLY HARD TO IMAGINE HOW YOUR LIFE COULD REALLY BE, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS TELLING YOU YOU CAN’T. IT’S LIKE, UH, IT JUST KILLS YOUR CONFIDENCE, KILLS THE DREAM. ♪ >> I FEEL LIKE AS MOST AMERICANS VIEW US, WE ARE POOR OR WE ARE DIRTY OR THEY DON’T EVEN KNOW WE ARE STILL ALIVE. JESSICA: ON THE PRAIRIE BAND POTTAWATOMIE NATION RESERVATION -- HOW OLD ARE YOU? WE HAPPENED UPON THIS YOUNG FAMILY JUST STARTING OUT. >> TO ME, BEING AMERICAN MEANS TO PRACTICE YOUR CEREMONIES AND RELIGION AND LANGUAGES. [SPEAKING INDIGENOUS LANGUAGE] THAT MEANS I’M POTTAWATOMIE. MY INDIAN NAME IS BIG WOLF. I’M THUNDER CLAN. MY COLOR IS BLUE. JESSICA: THEY TELL ME THEY ARE LIVING THE AMERICAN DREAM HERE, ON THE RESERVATION, BUT FOR MOM ROSANNA, IT’S COMPLICATED. JESSICA: AS A WOMAN, -- >> AS A WOMAN, I’M NOT EQUAL. AS A NATIVE AMERICAN, I’M NOT EQUAL. IF I WERE A WHITE WOMAN, I THINK I WOULD HAVE IT EASIER. A LOT OF THINGS WOULD BE EASIER. AND I THINK I WOULD BE HEARD MORE. ♪ >> IT MEANS BEING HEARD, BEING ABLE TO EXPRESS YOURSELF AND BE AUTHENTIC. JESSICA: ON TO KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI. AS THE SUN SET OVER THE JAZZ DISTRICT, WE CAUGHT UP WITH THIS SINGER. >> ♪ I NEED YOU BABY ♪ JESSICA: HER STAGE NAME, J-LOVE. >> MUSIC IS MY EXPRESSION. IT’S MY LOVE. IT’S MY HEART. IT IS GOD’S GIFT. JESSICA: WE ASKED, DOES SHE FEEL A SENSE OF BELONGING? >> MUSICALLY, YES. BUT IN MY EVERYDAY LIFE, NO. BECAUSE WHEN I’M IN THE GROCERY STORE, EVERYBODY DOESN’T KNOW THAT I AM J-LOVE. I DON’T LOOK THE SAME. I HAVE MY HAT ON. I’M JUST ANOTHER BLACK PERSON, AND I STILL HAVE PEOPLE FOLLOW ME AROUND IN WALMART. SOMETIMES, I’M COOL WITH IT. SOMETIMES, I’M NOT NICE ABOUT IT. SOMETIMES, I’M LIKE, HEY, DID YOU KNOW THAT IT’S PROBABLY NOT ME THAT’S STEALING? >> ♪ BLACK LIVES, THEY MATTER TO ME ♪ JESSICA: THE MOTHER OF TWO YOUNG BLACK MEN, SHE WROTE A SONG CALLED "BLACK LIVES MATTER." >> RIGHT NOW, I’M FEARFUL. EVERY TIME MY KIDS LEAVE OUT THE DOOR, I’M FEARFUL. WHERE ARE YOU GOING? WHO ARE YOU WITH? ♪ PLEASE LET MY BABY COME HOME ♪ SOME OF MY WHITE FRIENDS WILL SAY, NO, THAT’S NOT HAPPENING. OH, COME ON, IT’S NOT THAT BAD. OR THIS JUST HURTS ME TO THE CORE, WHEN MY WHITE FRIENDS SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST NEED TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. YOU KNOW, IF YOU JUST TALK ABOUT IT TOO MUCH. ♪ >> IT DOESN’T FEEL LIKE THERE’S A LOT OF COMPROMISE, BECAUSE WE DON’T SPEND TIME UNDERSTANDING OTHER PERSPECTIVES. JESSICA: FROM KANSAS CITY TO ST. LOUIS. IN THE SUBURBS, RETIRED NAVY PILOT KEVIN MCLAUGHLIN. >> SPENDING 31 YEARS IN THE MILITARY AND DEPLOYING SIX TIMES, THE ANSWER IS I FEEL MOST AMERICAN WHEN I’M NOT IN AMERICA AND SEEING HOW OTHER COUNTRIES AND OTHER CULTURES LIVE. IT REALLY MAKES YOU APPRECIATE WHAT YOU HAVE. JESSICA: MCLAUGHLIN, WHO LED THE MISSING MAN FORMATION -- PRESIDENT GEORGE H W BUSH WAS LAID TO REST. HE SAYS HIS YEARS IN THE MILITARY TAUGHT HIM THE VALUE OF ALL THAT MAKES UP THIS COUNTRY. >> YOU ARE ABLE TO LEARN OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF AND LEARN THAT THE WHOLE IS GREATER THAN THE PIECES THAT PUT IT TOGETHER. >> THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO ME SOMETIMES, YOU MIGHT NORMALIZE IT. WHEN YOU SEE YOUR CHILDREN, YOU ARE LIKE, WE HAVE TO STOP THIS. JESSICA: THIS AFRICAN-AMERICAN CHILDREN’S BOOKSTORE ALSO OUTSIDE OF ST. LOUIS. >> I CAN TRAVEL THROUGH TIME. I CAN SEE MYSELF IN THAT. JESSICA: I.T. MANAGER AND FORMER ATTORNEY JEFFREY BLAIR AND HIS PIPE -- WIFE OPENED UP FIVE YEARS AGO. INSPIRED BUT WHAT -- BY WHAT THEIR CHILDREN WERE MISSING. >> THERE ARE TIMES IN MY LIFE AND MY CHILDREN’S LIVES WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN INCIDENTS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE THAT WOULD HAVE US QUESTION WHETHER AMERICA VALUES US, RIGHT? ARE WE FULL CITIZENS OR JUST AS BYSTANDERS? JESSICA: IT WAS DURING THE PANDEMIC WHEN THERE GOFUNDME PLEA RESULTED IN AN OUTPOURING OF SUPPORT, KEEPING THE STORE IN BUSINESS. >> I THINK THOSE TIMES WHEN COLLECTIVELY I FEEL THE SUPPORT AND VALIDATION OF COMMUNITY IS WHEN IF FEEL LIKE I AM PART OF SOMETHING. BUT THERE ARE TIMES AGAIN WHEN I DON’T. ♪ THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE BOOKS, THE UNDEFEATED. THIS IS FOR THE UNFORGETTABLE, THE SWIFT AND SWEET ONES, THE ONES THAT HURTLED HISTORY AND OPEN THE WORLD OF POSSIBILITIES. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS IS THE POSSIBILITY GOING FORWARD, THE POSSIBILITY OF HOPE AND POSSIBILITY OF CHANGE. I THINK THE IDEA OF EXPANDING THE NOTION OF FREEDOM AND WHO IT APPLIES TO, TO BE THE COLLECTIVE AND NOT JUST THE FEW, THAT CAN GIVE GREATNESS TO THE IDEALS OF WHAT AMERICA SUPPOSEDLY STANDS FOR. THIS IS FOR THE UNDEFEATED, THIS IS FOR YOU AND FOR YOU AND FOR YOU, THIS IS FOR US, THE UNDEFEATED. ♪ JESSICA: ALONG I-70, FOR THE LISTENING TOUR, I’M JESSICA GOMEZ. ♪ SOLEDAD: HOW YOU SEE YOURSELF, WHETHER YOU HAVE A SENSE OF BELONGING MIGHT ALSO PREDICT YOUR POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT. A NEW STUDY FROM RESEARCHERS AT PENN STATE EXAMINES THE CONNECTION BETWEEN OUR AMERICAN IDENTIY AND HOW LIKELY WE ARE TO CAMPAIGN FOR A CANDIDATE, DONATE MONEY TO A CAUSE, OR PROTEST. I SPOKE TO RAY BLOCK JR., ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES ABOUT HIS RESEARCH AND WHY OUR SENSE OF AMERICAN-NESS MATTERS. DR. RAY BLOCK JUNIOR, IT’S SO NICE TO HAVE YOU. LET’S DOVE RIGHT IN AND TALK ABOUT PATRIOTISM. WHAT IS THE THE FACE OF PATRIOTISM IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW? RAY: I FEEL LIKE THERE ARE MANY FACES TO PATRIOTISM. BARACK OBAMA, HE WAS INTERVIEWED. SOMEONE ASKED HIM, WHAT DOES PATRIOTISM MEAN? HE SAID THAT FOR WHITE AMERICA, BASED ON HIS UNDERSTANDING, AMERICANNESS AND THE PATRIOTISM THAT IT INSPIRES, IF IT HAD A SOUNDTRACK, IT WOULD BE LIKE A JOHN PHILIP SOUSA MARCHING BAND. IT WOULD BE TRIUMPHANT. THERE WOULD BE BRASS, IT WOULD BE LOUD AND WOULD BE CELEBRATORY. WHAT HE THEN SAID WAS, THIS IS SOMETHING I AGREE WITH, IS THAT FOR BLACK AMERICA, SOMETIMES THE STORY IN THE SOUNDTRACK OF AMERICA SOUNDS LIKE A JAZZ NUMBER WITH BLUE NOTES. IN OTHER WORDS, SOMETIMES THE SOUNDS IN AND OF THEMSELVES AREN’T PLEASANT TO HEAR. BUT THE OVERALL MUSIC IS WONDERFUL IN PART BECAUSE IT HAS THE COMPLEXITY IN IT. SOLEDAD: IT ALSO HIGHLIGHTS THE THAT THERE ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT SOUNDTRACKS, DEPENDING ON YOUR POINT OF VIEW. I’M CURIOUS IF YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHAT FACTORS YOU THINK GO INTO DETERMINING AMERICANISM AND WHO GETS TO BE AN AMERICAN. RAY: THERE IS WHAT WE CALL ALLEGIANCE. WE USE THE WORD ON PURPOSE BECAUSE IT REALLY DOES KIND OF TAP INTO THAT PART OF THE AMERICANS CREED WHERE YOU PROTECT THE IDEA OF WHAT AMERICA IS. BUT THERE’S ALSO THE IDEA THAT YOU FEEL LIKE YOU BELONG TO THE COUNTRY, TO BELONGINGNESS, OBVIOUSLY CONNECTS TO ALLEGIANCE. THEY SHOULD BE CONNECTED. THEY SHOULD BE A LOT OF OVERLAP BETWEEN THE TWO. BUT THE DEGREE TO WHICH THEY OVERLAP, I THINK DIFFERS FOR WHITE AMERICA AND BLACK AMERICA, FOR EXAMPLE, PEOPLE CAN HAVE HIGH LEVELS OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE COUNTRY AND STILL DIFFER SUBSTANTIALLY IN THE EXTENT TO WHICH THEY FEEL LIKE THEY BELONG IN THE COUNTRY. SOLEDAD: WHAT DID YOUR CITY FIND? RAY: THE MORE BELONGING YOU FEEL WITH THE COUNTRY, THE MORE IT MAKES SENSE TO TAKE PART IN MAINSTREAM ACTIONS. THE LESS YOU FEEL LIKE YOU BELONG IN THE COUNTRY, THE MORE APPEALING NONMAINSTREAM FORMS OF POLITICAL ACTION BECOME TO YOU. SOLEDAD: YOU’VE SAID PATRIOTISM. YOU SAID PATRIOTISM CAN BE WEAPONIZED. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN EXACTLY? RAY: I HEAR IT ALL THE TIME. LIKE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU’RE TOO CRITICAL OF WHAT’S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT MEANS THAT YOU DON’T LOVE THE UNITED STATES. I WOULD ARGUE THAT A SOBER AND MATURE WAY OF THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO LOVE THE COUNTRY IS TO EMBRACE IT DESPITE THE FLAWS THAT IT HAS, AND NOT TO NECESSARILY OVERLOOK THE FLAWS FOR THE SAKE OF AN IDEA OR FOR THE SAKE OF AN IMAGE THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO KEEP ABOUT WHAT AMERICA IS. SOLEDAD: JAMES BALDWIN SAID, YOU KNOW, I CRITICIZE AMERICA BECAUSE I LOVE AMERICA. RAY: THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT. SOLEDAD: DR. REBLOCK, JR., SO NICE TO TALK TO YOU, THANK YOU. RAY: THANK YOU. THIS WAS A PLEASURE. VERY GOOD. SOLEDAD: IF ALLEGIANCE AND BELONGING ARE ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF AMERICAN-NESS, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN OUR ALLEGIANCE IS CALLED INTO QUESTION? HISTORY HAS THE ANSWER. ONE MOMENT IN PARTICULAR STANDS OUT TO US. IT WAS THE MOMENT 23-YEAR-OLD CALIFORNIAN FRED KOREMATSU REFUSED TO GET ON A BUS IN DEFIANCE OF A PRESIDENTIAL EXECUTIVE ORDER. ORDER 90-66 ALLOWING THE INTERNMENT OF JAPANESE-AMERICANS. IT’S STORY WE ASKED HIS DAUGHTER, KAREN KOREMATSU, TO TELL. ♪ KAREN: MY FATHER WAS MY HERO. HE WAS MY EXAMPLE AND MY SHINING LIGHT REALLY, MY FATHER WAS FRED KOREMATSU, WHO HAD THE LANDMARK SUPREME COURT CASE, KOREMATSU VERSUS UNITED STATES, REGARDING THE JAPANESE AMERICAN INCARCERATION DURING WORLD WAR II. EXECUTIVE ORDER 9066 WAS ISSUED BY PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT. THAT WAS THE ORDER THAT GAVE ACTUALLY THE MILITARY THE AUTHORITY TO FORCIBLY REMOVE ANYONE OF JAPANESE ANCESTRY FROM THE WEST COAST, WASHINGTON, OREGON, CALIFORNIA AND ARIZONA, AND THEY WERE GIVEN JUST 48 HOURS’ NOTICE TO REPORT TO THE DETENTION ASSEMBLY CENTERS. HE WAS ARRESTED IN SAN LEANDRO, CALIFORNIA, HE NEVER BLAMED ANYONE FOR THE JAPANESE AMERICAN INCARCERATION. THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF NORTHERN CALIFORNIA THAT VISITED MY FATHER IN JAIL AND ASKED IF HE’D BE WILLING TO FIGHT HIS CASE. AND MR. BESTEK SAID, IF NEED BE, WE’LL TAKE IT ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT. IT WAS JUST A SIMPLE MATTER OF HE THOUGHT THE GOVERNMENT WAS WRONG. AND HE WAS RIGHT TO TAKE A STAND. HE WAS STANDING UP AS AN AMERICAN. AND THAT IS THE QUESTION, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE AN AMERICAN? I THINK MY FATHER WAS MOST PROUD OF THE FACT THAT HIS FEDERAL CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED OR VACATED. IT ALMOST TOOK 40 YEARS FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, THAT HE NEVER GAVE UP HOPE. AFTER MY FATHER PASSED AWAY IN 2005, THEN PEOPLE WERE LOOKING TO ME AT FIRST, I WAS A BIT SHY, I MUST ADMIT, BUT I FELT IT WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO TO CARRY ON HIS LEGACY. WHEN THE LAWSUIT CAME UP OF TRUMP VERSUS HAWAII, THE MUSLIM BAN, THEN IT BECAME THE IMMIGRATION BAN. BACK IN 1942, THEY CALLED IT YO, MILITARY NECESSITY. NOW WE CALL IT NATIONAL SECURITY. THIS IS THE SAME PATTERN THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS USED FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION. IT’S THE SAME OLD STORY OF, YOU’RE GUILTY BECAUSE YOU’RE LOOKING LIKE THE ENEMY. AND THAT’S CLEARLY WRONG. MY FATHER WAS AN EXAMPLE OF WALKING ACROSS COMMUNITIES. AND THAT’S WHAT WE NEED TO DO NOW MORE THAN THAN EVER, THE INTERSECTIONALITY OF OUR COMMUNITIES IS SO IMPORTANT IF WE’RE GOING TO MAKE CHANGE. SOLEDAD: THE PERSONAL STORIES WE ARE ABOUT TO SHARE ALL POINT TO THE COMPLEX NATURE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN. HOW CHALLENGING IT IS TO BE SEEN AS DIFFERENT. AND SOMEHOW, A LITTLE LESS AMERICAN BECAUSE OF THAT DIFFERENCE. THAT’S A BIG PART OF MY STORY, WHICH I TOLD TO OUR PRODUCERS AS WE WERE GETTING READY FOR THE SHOW. MY PARENTS WERE BOTH FOREIGNERS TO THIS COUNTRY, MY MOM FROM CUBA, MY DAD FROM AUSTRALIA. MY MOM WAS BLACK. MY DAD WAS WHITE. THEY BOTH PASSED AWAY ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. AND REALLY CONVERSATIONS ABOUT BEING AN AMERICAN FOR ME STARTED WITH THIS IDEA THAT YOU’RE PROBABLY REALLY NOT ONE, THAT YOU’RE NOT QUITE ONE, YOU’RE NOT REALLY EXACTLY ONE OF US. YOU DON’T EXACTLY BELONG HERE. SOMETIMES EVEN PEOPLE WOULD SAY GO BACK TO WHERE YOU’RE FROM, WHICH IS I’M FROM LONG ISLAND, SO I’M HAPPY TO GO BACK TO LONG ISLAND. [LAUGHTER] SO I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR OR PEOPLE WHOSE PARENTS ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, THE CONVERSATION ABOUT BEING AN AMERICAN IS ONE OF NOT QUITE ENOUGH. NOW, OUR GUESTS ARE READY TO SHARE THEIR STORIES. GUESTS, INCLUDING BREAKOUT FILMMAKER SHAKA KING ON HIS ACCLAIMED MOVIE, JUDAS AND THE BLACK MESSIAH. EDUCATOR AND ACTIVIST ILYASAH SHABAZZ ON BEING THE DAUGHTER OF ICONS AND CARRYING ON THE WORK OF HER PARENTS, MALCOLM X AND DR. BETTY SHABAZZ. ALSO, WITH US, NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES, CREATOR OF THE ACCLAIMED NEW YORK TIMES 1619 PROJECT. AND HISTORIANS ANNETTE GORDON REED AND ERIC FONER HERE TO TALK ABOUT CITIZENSHIP, AND THE NATION’S JOURNEY TO EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW. AND WE’LL GIVE YOU ANOTHER CHANCE TO PROVE YOU CAN PASS THE CITIZENSHIP TEST. THAT’S ALL COMING UP. BUT FIRST WE TAKE UP ONE OF THE MOST PRESSING QUESTIONS ABOUT AMERICAN IDENTITY, WHY HAS THE AMERICAN PUBLIC BECOME SO POLARIZED? DOES IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH OUR CHANGING DEMOGRAPHICS? LET’S TAKE A SNAPSHOT VIEW OF THE NATION. AMERICA IS YOUNGER. MILLENNIALS ARE THE LARGEST ADULT GENERATION IN THE U.S. BUT THEY ARE STARTING TO SHARE THE SPOTLIGHT WITH GENERATION Z. IMMIGRANTS MAKE UP A LARGER SHARE OF THE U.S. POPULATION. NOW ABOUT 14%. ONE IN SIX MARRIAGES ARE INTERRACIAL. BOTTOM LINE, MOST OF US ARE DIFFERENT. AND ACCORDING TO THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU, BY 2050, THE U.S. WILL BECOME A MAJORITY NON-WHITE NATION. OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THE OVERLAP IN OUR IDENTITIES IS CHANGING THE WAY WE SEE OURSELVES AND OTHERS AND CHANGING POLITICS. I SPOKE TO PROFESSOR LILLIANA MASON, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "UNCIVIL AGREEMENT, HOW POLITICS BECAME OUR IDENTITY." LILIANA MASON, SO NICE TO TALK TO YOU. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, PROFESSOR. SO THE LAST FEW YEARS, IT FEELS LIKE TO ME, HAVE REALLY HIGHLIGHTED OUR PARTIZANSHIP, BUT I CAN’T REALLY PUT MY FINGER ON WHY. WHAT’S THE REASON BEHIND IT ALL? >> SINCE THE 1960’S, THE PARTIES HAVE BECOME INCREASINGLY DIFFERENT IN TERMS OF BOTH RACE AND RELIGION AND ALSO CULTURE AND GEOGRAPHY AND ALL ALL THESE DIFFERENT SORT OF THINGS THAT MAKE UP OUR EVERY DAY. IN THE 1960’S AND 70’S, THERE WOULD BE DEMOCRATS WHO HAD REPUBLICAN NEIGHBORS OR THEY WERE IN A BOWLING LEAGUE WITH REPUBLICANS. AND THOSE TYPES OF CONNECTIONS HAVE BEEN DISAPPEARING OVER THE LAST FEW DECADES, WHICH MEANS, FIRST OF ALL, WE DON’T GET AS MUCH CONTACT WITH PEOPLE IN THE OTHER PARTY, BUT THAT MAKES IT A LOT EASIER FOR US TO DEHUMANIZE PEOPLE AND THE OTHER PARTY. SOLEDAD: WHAT ROLE IS RACE PLAYING IN POLITICAL DIVISION TODAY? >> IT’S A MASSIVE, MASSIVE ROLE. WE ARE SEEING THAT THE PARTIES ARE LARGELY DIVIDED AROUND THE CONCEPT OF BASIC SOCIAL HIERARCHY. SO SHOULD, BASICALLY, WHITE MEN STILL BE AT THE TOP OF OUR SOCIAL HIERARCHY? ARE THEY STILL AT THE TOP? AND IF THEY ARE, IS DO WE WANT THEM TO STAY THERE? THOSE QUESTIONS ARE REALLY DIVIDING THE PARTIES MORE THAN ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE. AND BECAUSE IT’S ORGANIZED AROUND PARTY, PEOPLE CAN, FIRST OF ALL VOTE ON BEHALF OF THEIR RACIAL INTERESTS. THEY CAN USE PARTY AS A PROXY FOR RACE BECAUSE THE PARTIES ARE SO RACIALLY DIVIDED. AND OFTEN PEOPLE DO USE PARTIES AS A PROXY FOR RACE BECAUSE IT’S SOCIALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO TALK ABOUT RACIAL OUTGROUPS IN A NEGATIVE WAY. BUT IT’S PERFECTLY FINE TO TALK ABOUT PARTIZAN OUTGROUPS IN A NEGATIVE WAY. AND SO I THINK THIS IS REALLY A UNIQUE CHALLENGE IN ALL OF AMERICAN HISTORY. SOLEDAD: SO NOT ALL THAT LONG AGO, 40% OF WHITE DEMOCRATS HAD AWARENESS OF HOW DIFFERENT LIFE IS FOR BLACK AMERICANS BECAUSE OF SYSTEMIC RACISM. FAST-FORWARD TO 2019. THAT NUMBER JUMPS TO 80% OF WHITE DEMOCRATS HAD THAT AWARENESS. >> THIS IS REALLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHANGES THAT WE’VE SEEN IN THE ELECTORATE IS THE THE RACIAL ATTITUDES OF WHITE DEMOCRATS AND THE RACIAL ATTITUDES OF WHITE REPUBLICANS HAVEN’T CHANGED VERY MUCH. THEY’VE ACTUALLY BECOME SLIGHTLY MORE PROGRESSIVE, BUT NOT VERY MUCH. AND MAYBE BY A POINT OR TWO, WHEREAS WHITE DEMOCRATS, AS YOU SAID, THEY’VE HAD THIS HUGE TURNAROUND. THEY ARE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THERE’S A SYSTEMIC RACISM PROBLEM IN THE U.S. THAT WE HAVEN’T FULLY DEALT WITH BEFORE. IT’S IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT AND DEAL WITH BEFORE WE’RE EVER GOING TO BE A FULLY REPRESENTATIVE, EQUAL DEMOCRACY. SOLEDAD: PROFESSOR LILIANA MASON, THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME. SOLEDAD: NOW WE MOVE FROM AMERICAN IDENTITY IN RACE AND POLITICS TO THE QUESTION OF CITIZENSHIP. HERE’S AN IRONY. NATIVE AMERICAN AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLES WERE THE FIRST CITIZENS OF THIS LAND. YET THE ROAD TO U.S. CITIZENSHIP FOR NATIVE AMERICANS WAS EVEN LONGER THAN FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS AND WOMEN. NATIVE AMERICANS WERE GRANTED CITIZENSHIP IN 1924. BUT IT WAS EVEN LONGER BEFORE THEY GAINED THE RIGHT TO VOTE. IT’S A COMPLEX STORY OF PEOPLES NEARLY ERASED FROM THEIR LANDS AND THEIR FIGHT TO BELONG. MEET NIKKI PETRI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN YOUTH COMMISSION. >> AS A GIRL I WOULD WALK TO CHA’QE’LE, A LAKE THAT MY ANCESTORS AND PEOPLE HAVE FISHED, HAD CEREMONY AND CULTURAL HAPPENINGS SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL. I WAS TAUGHT AT A YOUNG AGE THAT WE BELONG TO CHA’QE’LE AND CHA’QE’LE IS WITHIN US. ONE DAY WHILE WALKING, A BOY SPED PAST ME ON A BIKE AND YELLED AT ME GO BACK TO THE RESERVATION. I HATE NATIVE AMERICANS. THEY NEED TO GO BACK TO WHERE THEY CAME FROM. THEY ARE NOT AMERICAN. I WAS EIGHT YEARS OLD. I AM NIKKI PITRE, A PROUD MEMBER OF THE COEUR D’ALENE AND I WANT YOU TO KNOW MY AMERICAN DREAM. THOSE WHO WERE DISCOVERED HERE, THE REMINDER THAT MY PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN HERE. WE WERE DISCOVERED BY VISITORS TO COLONIZE US, HERE ON THIS LAND. CHN SCHITSU’UMSH. WE HAVE SEEN THIS WHEN OUR TSU’TSUT’N, OUR ANCESTORS, WERE FORCED INTO BOARDING SCHOOLS AND THEIR HAIR CUT. WHEN THEY WERE PUNISHED FOR SPEAKING THE ONLY LANGUAGE THEY KNEW IN ATTEMPTS TO KILL THE INDIAN AND SAVE THE MAN. BECAUSE HOW COULD AN INDIAN BE A MAN? WE SEE THIS NOW IN EVERYDAY PLACES, LIKE THE MISREPRESENTATION IN MASCOTS OR THE INACCURATE HISTORIES I WAS FORCED TO LEARN IN SCHOOL. I HAD TO LEARN EVERY SINGLE UNITED STATES PRESIDENT, YET MY PEERS DID NOT LEARN OF TWISTED EARTH, CHIEF SPOKANE GARRY, OR IGNACE GARRY, THEY COULD NOT NAME A SINGLE CHIEF. COULD YOU? DESPITE ATTEMPTED COLONIZATION, TERMINATION, ERASURE, AND ATTEMPT TO KILL THE INDIAN, WE KEEP FIGHTING BECAUSE WE ARE RESILIENT JUST LIKE OUR TSU’TSU’TN TAUGHT US TO BE. A FEW MONTHS AGO, I TOOK MY DAUGHTER TO CHA’QE’LE AND AS SHE PUT HER HANDS IN THE WATER AND CONNECTED WITH SPACE THAT OUR TSU’TSU’TN HAVE, I REMINDED HER THAT SHE BELONGS HERE. SHE BELONGS TO THIS LAND. SHE IS SCHITSU’UMSH AND NOBODY CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM HER, IT’S IN HER BLOOD. MY AMERICAN DREAM IS RICH IN MAINTAINING MY SCHITSU’UMSH CULTURE THROUGH SONG, DANCE, AND SPEAKING MY ANCESTOR’S TONGUE. MY AMERICAN DREAM CONNECTING TO THE LAND, HONORING THE TEACHINGS OF MY ANCESTORS AND MY TSU’TSU’TN AND INCREASING VISIBILITY OF OUR PEOPLE FOR THE NEXT GENERATIONS. MY AMERICAN DREAM IS TO BE A GOOD TSU’TSU’TN SO OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS HAVE STRONG SHOULDERS TO STAND ON, AND WALK PROUDLY ON THIS EARTH AFTER I AM GONE. SOLEDAD: IF YOU WERE BORN IN THE U.S., CITIZENSHIP IS YOUR BIRTHRIGHT. UNLIKE NATURALIZED CITIZENS, YOU DON’T HAVE TO TAKE A TEST OR PLEDGE AN OATH OF ALLEGIANCE. SO JUST HOW MANY OF US COULD PASS? THOSE OF YOU WHO WENT TO MATTER OFFACT.TV TO TAKE OUR CITIZENSHIP TEST, WILL FIND OUT HOW YOU DID IN JUST A FEW MINUTES. BUT LET ME TEST YOU JUST A BIT MORE. HOW MANY AMENDMENTS DOES THE CONSTITUTION HAVE? 23, 20 1, 10, 27. THERE WERE 13 ORIGINAL STATES. NAME THREE. WERE THEY MARYLAND, VIRGINIA, AND NORTH CAROLINA, WASHINGTON, OREGON, AND CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK, KENTUCKY, AND GEORGIA, VIRGINIA, NORTH CAROLINA, AND FLORIDA. THE FEDERALIST PAPERS SUPPORTED THE PASSAGE OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. NAME ONE OF THE WRITERS. THOMAS JEFFERSON, GEORGE WASHINGTON, JOHN ADAMS, JAMES MADISON. DON’T STRESS. WE’LL GIVE YOU THE ANSWERS COMING UP. THE DEBATE OVER WHO GETS TO BE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN IS AS OLD AS THE NATION ITSELF. PHOTOS BEAR WITNESS TO THE PAINFUL STRUGGLES OF AFRICAN AMERICANS, INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, AND IMMIGRANT GROUPS SEEKING TO BELONG. THEY ALSO BEAR WITNESS TO THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS. ENSLAVED AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO BUILT OUR MONUMENTS TO DEMOCRACY , IRON WORKERS FROM THE SIX NATIONS OF THE IROQUOIOS RAISED AND RIVETED THE BEAMS OF NEW YORK’S ICONIC BUILDINGS. PERHAPS THE BUILDING OF THE TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILROAD REPRESENTS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTIONS OF IMMIGRANTS. THEIR STORY IS TOLD BY SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, RAY SUAREZ. ♪ RAY: AS THE CIVIL WAR MOVED TO ITS END, TWO MASSIVE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS PICKED UP SPEED. IMMIGRANTS AND DISCHARGED SOLDIERS HEADED WEST, LAYING TRACK ACROSS THE PLAINS STARTING IN IOWA, WHILE A WORKFORCE OF LARGELY CHINESE IMMIGRANTS LAID TRACK EASTBOUND FROM SACRAMENTO, ACROSS THE SIERRA MOUNTAINS. C1 THE 1900-MILE ROUTE CONNECTED WESTERN PASTURES TO MIDWESTERN STOCKYARDS AND GREAT PLAINS FARMS TO GREAT LAKES MILLS. BUT WHEN THE TRACKS WERE FINALLY JOINED ON MAY 10, 1869 HERE, IN PROMONTORY POINT, UTAH, A CLOSER LOOK SHOWS NOT ONE CHINESE WORKER IN THE HISTORIC PHOTOGRAPH, OUT OF MORE THAN 16,000. RUSSELL LOW TOLD ME HE DIDN’T GROW UP KNOWING ABOUT HIS FAMILY’S CONNECTION TO THIS GREAT 19TH CENTURY DRAMA. >> IN FACT, A LOT OF THE STORY OF MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS WASN’T KNOWN. RAY: THIS IS 150 YEARS AGO. A GREAT UNCLE WAS CELEBRATING HIS 100TH BIRTHDAY. >> MY SISTER WALKED UP TO HIM WITH HER VIDEO CAMERA RUNNING AND SHE SAYS, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FATHER, UNCLE KIM. AND HE PROCEEDED TO BREAK INTO A LECTURE AT 100, UNREHEARSED ABOUT THE TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILROAD. AT THE END HE SAID THEY GOT A LOT OF CHINESE TO COME OVER HERE. AND AMONGST THEM WAS MY FATHER AND MY UNCLE. RAY: DIGGING INTO HIS FAMILY HISTORY, LOW FOUND THIS PHOTO, HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER THE RAILROAD WORKER. IN 1903. MANY DIED, MANY WERE BLINDED OR CRIPPLED BY YEARS OF TUNNELING THROUGH MOUNTAINS AND BUILDING BRIDGES SPANNING GREAT VALLEYS. ONCE THE RAILROAD WAS BUILT, THESE WORKERS FOUND THEIR SACRIFICE HADN’T EARNED A WELCOME FROM THEIR NEW COUNTRY. MAE: CHINESE WERE, YOU MIGHT SAY, ESSENTIAL WORKERS IN PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES IN THE 19TH CENTURY AND EVEN INTO THE 20TH AND INTO OUR OWN TIME. RAY: PROFESSOR MAE NGAI IS A HISTORIAN OF AMERICAN IMMIGRATION. SHE SAYS CHINESE MEN FIRST CAME IN LARGE NUMBERS DURING THE CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH, IN 1849. AFTER THE GOLD RUSH PEAKED, DID THEY GO HOME, OR DID THEY TRANSITION INTO THE WESTERN END OF THE TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILROAD? MAE: WELL, SOME OF THEM WENT HOME. SOME OF THEM WENT TO THE CITIES, BUT SOME OF THEM ALSO WORKED ON THE RAILROAD. THE CHINESE WENT TO WORK FOR THE RAILROAD, IN PART BECAUSE THE RAILROAD COMPANIES WERE VERY DISSATISFIED WITH WHITE LABOR. THE UNEMPLOYED WHITE GOLD MINERS DIDN’T WANT TO DO PICK AND SHOVEL WORK. RAY: THE MEN WHO HAD LAID TRACK ACROSS MOUNTAINS WEREN’T HEROES. THEY WERE A PROBLEM. MAE: WELL, THE ANTI-CHINESE MOVEMENT IN CALIFORNIA, THEY WERE HYSTERICAL. THEY WERE RAVING RACISTS, AND THEY WERE RELENTLESS. THEY CAPTURED BOTH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. RUSSELL: 1882, THEY PASSED THIS INFAMOUS CHINESE EXCLUSION ACT. IF YOU WERE HERE, YOU COULD NEVER BECOME A CITIZEN. THE MOST OFFENDING THING FOR MANY OF THESE CHINESE WAS THAT THEY HAD BEEN HERE FOR DECADES AND THEY COULD NEVER, EVER VOTE, COULD NOT BECOME A CITIZEN. AND IN ADDITION, IF THEY EVER LEFT THIS COUNTRY, YOU COULD NEVER COME BACK. AND WHAT THAT DID WAS IT SEPARATED FAMILIES, NOT FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS OR A COUPLE MONTHS, BUT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. RAY: AND THE CHINESE EXCLUSION ACT HUNG ON UNTIL WORLD WAR II. WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THE WAY WE TEACH HISTORY CHANGED SO THAT THE STORY IS A FULLER STORY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION, WHO BUILT AMERICA? RUSSELL: THAT RAILROAD THEY BUILT TRULY CHANGED THIS NATION. WITHOUT THOSE 16,000 CHINESE WORKERS, IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. IT LINKED US PHYSICALLY, EMOTIONALLY, FINANCIALLY FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME EVER. AND IT HAD TREMENDOUS IMPACT WE WENT FROM BEING ABLE TO TAKE A CROSS-COUNTRY TRIP OF SIX MONTHS IN A WAGON TRAIN TO JUST, YOU KNOW, SIX DAYS. THAT’S PHENOMENAL. RAY: I’M RAY SUAREZ FOR THE LISTENING TOUR. SOLEDAD: THANK YOU, RAY. I DON’T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, WE DIDN’T QUITE GET THE MOST COMPLETE VERSION OF AMERICAN HISTORY. AND SOME OF THE THINGS WE WERE TAUGHT WERE SIMPLY MYTHS. TO FILL IN SOME OF THE BLANKS, AND TO HELP US UNDERSTAND THE NATION’S LONG DEBATE OVER CITIZENSHIP AND EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAW, WE TURN TO TWO PROMINENT HISTORIANS, ANNETTE GORDON REED WHO TEACHES AT HARVARD, AND ERIC FONER, OF COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY. PROFESSOR GORDON REID, PROFESSOR FONER, SO NICE TO SEE BOTH OF THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH ME. PROFESSOR GORDON REID, IF I CAN START WITH YOU. I THINK WE LIKE TO THINK OF CITIZENSHIP AS THIS VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD THING. YOU ARE OR YOU AREN’T. BUT IT SEEMS LIKE IT’S ACTUALLY BEEN QUITE SHIFTING OVER THE YEARS. WHY DON’T YOU BEGIN FOR ME WITH A LITTLE HISTORY OF HOW WE THOUGHT ABOUT THE CITIZENSHIP QUESTION FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. PROF. REID: WELL, CERTAINLY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE REPUBLIC, THE NOTION THAT EVERYBODY WHO LIVED HERE WAS A CITIZEN WAS NOT THE CASE BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE WERE AFRICAN-AMERICANS, MOST OF WHOM WERE ENSLAVED, WHO WERE NOT CONSIDERED CITIZENS OF THE NEW UNITED STATES, NOR COULD THEY BECOME, COULD BLACK PEOPLE COME TO THE COUNTRY. THE NATURALIZATION ACT OF 1790 SAID IT HAD TO BE FREE WHITE PEOPLE WHO COULD COME AND BECOME CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES. IT TOOK A LONG TIME, EVEN I SHOULD SAY, EVEN IN PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT ENSLAVED, AFRICAN-AMERICANS WHO WERE NOT ENSLAVED WERE NOT CONSIDERED FULL CITIZENS. THEIR CITIZENSHIP WAS SECOND CLASS. THERE WAS FIRST CLASS AND SECOND CLASS CITIZENSHIP, WHICH YOU DIDN’T HAVE BEFORE. AND OBVIOUSLY, THE 14TH AMENDMENT, WHICH WAS DESIGNED TO BRING BLACK PEOPLE INTO CITIZENSHIP. BUT WE KNOW EVEN AFTER THAT WAS A TECHNICAL LEGALITY OF TECHNICALLY LEGAL THING, IT STILL DID NOT EXIST. EQUAL CITIZENSHIP DID NOT EXIST. IT DID NOT TAKE PLACE UNTIL THE 60’S. SOLEDAD: IF YOU COULD JUMP IN ON THIS. PROF. FONER: THESE ARE STILL BEING FOUGHT OUT. EVERY DAY WE ARE DEBATING ON THE BORDER BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND MEXICO, WHO SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP AND WHAT RIGHTS COME WITH BEING A CITIZEN. IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE REPUBLIC AND WELL INTO THE 20TH CENTURY, LET’S SAY WHITE WOMEN BORN IN THE U.S. WERE CONSIDERED CITIZENS, AND YET THEY DID NOT ENJOY ANYWHERE NEAR THE SAME RIGHTS AS MEN. BEING A CITIZEN IS NOT NECESSARILY DIRECTLY RELATED TO ENJOYING EQUAL PRIVILEGES, EQUAL RIGHTS. SOLEDAD: TALK TO ME ABOUT THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THE FACT WE STILL HAVE THIS DEBATE, NEVER FULLY BEING ABLE TO CLARIFY WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A CITIZEN. PROF. FONER: THAT THAT BASIC CONTRADICTION BETWEEN LIBERTY AND SLAVERY HAS FED THROUGH AMERICAN HISTORY. SLAVERY DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE, FORTUNATELY. BUT THE IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE DESERVING THAN OTHERS OF ENJOYING THE FULL RIGHTS OF BEING AMERICAN IS STILL OUT THERE. EVEN THOUGH WE PRIDE OURSELVES ON BEING A DEMOCRACY, THERE ARE MANY WHO FEEL SOME AMERICANS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS, SO TO SPEAK. SOLEDAD: YOU TALKED ABOUT REFRAMING THE RECONSTRUCTION SO IT IS UNDERSTOOD CORRECTLY. HOW IS IT MISUNDERSTOOD TODAY AND HOW WOULD YOU REFRAME IT? PROF. FONER: NOT UNTIL LONG AGO RECONSTRUCTION WAS SEEN AS A PERIOD OF VINDICTIVENESS OF THE NORTH TO THE SOUTH, CORRUPTION. THE MISTAKE WAS GIVING AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE, IN THAT INTERPRETATION. IN THAT INTERPRETATION, BLACK MEN WERE NOT CONSIDERED ABLE TO EXERCISE THAT RIGHT. THAT WAS JUSTIFICATION FOR THE JIM CROW SOUTH AND ELIMINATION OF BLACK VOTING WHICH TOOK PLACE AROUND 1900. TODAY WE SEE RECONSTRUCTION DIFFERENTLY. IT WAS A PERIOD OF A BIRACIAL DEMOCRACY, THE FIRST TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY THAT LARGE NUMBERS OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE TO HOLD OFFICE. IT WAS REALLY A MAJOR STEP FORWARD FOR DEMOCRACY AND THE TRAGEDY IS NOT THAT IT WAS ATTEMPTED, BUT THAT IT WAS OVERTHROWN BY VIOLENCE, BY CORRUPTION, AND OTHER THINGS. THE POINT REALLY IS JUST HISTORY MATTERS. WHAT WE THINK ABOUT HISTORY MATTERS TODAY. IT’S NOT JUST AN ARCANE ACADEMIC SUBJECT. PROF. REED: IN MY BOOK, I FOUND MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHERS -- GRANDFATHER’S REGISTRATION IN 1867 IN TEXAS VOTING. AND THEN BY 1870, AS YOU KNOW, RECONSTRUCTION IS OVER IN TEXAS. AND I THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MUST HAVE MEANT TO HIM TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT AND TO THINK ABOUT PARTICIPATING IN SOCIETY AND HAVE THAT JUST CUT OFF AND THEN HAVE PEOPLE LATER ON, AS YOU SAY, WITH THE HISTORY MAKING IT SEEM LIKE HIS PARTICIPATION WAS SOME HUGE MISTAKE AND SOME TERRIBLE THING THAT HAPPENED TO THE COUNTRY SOLEDAD: THE DEBATE WE ARE HAVING TODAY, BOTH THE COLOR OF THE SKIN AND HOW THAT BEARS ON YOUR ACCESS TO CITIZENSHIP, HOW DOES THAT PLAY OUT TODAY? PROF. FONER: THERE IS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN USING ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT AS A WEAPON. IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, IT CAN BE AN EFFECTIVE POLITICAL WEAPON. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE LABOR NEEDS OF SOCIETY ARE THERE. WHO WILL PICK ALL OF THE CROPS IT -- IN CALIFORNIA THAT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY RELIES ON FOR THEIR DINNER TABLE? NATIVEBORN AMERICANS ARE NOT LIKELY TO TAKE THOSE JOBS. PEOPLE SAY OUR IMMIGRANT SYSTEM IS BROKEN, WE HAVE MILLIONS WITHOUT DOCUMENTATION, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THEM? THEIR CHILDREN BORN IN THE U.S. ARE CITIZENS, BECAUSE OF THE 14TH AMENDMENT. YOU HAVE FAMILIES, SOME OF WHOM COULD BE KICKED OUT OF THE COUNTRY, OTHERS CAN’T. I THINK THE ONE THING WE CAN AGREE ON IS THAT THIS SYSTEM HAS TO BE FIXED IN SOME WAY. RIGHT NOW, IT IS TOTALLY DYSFUNCTIONAL. SOLEDAD: PROFESSOR GORDON REID, -- GORDON REED, FINAL QUESTION TO YOU. WE’VE BEEN IN THIS CONVERSATION FRAMING THIS TO SOME DEGREE AS A BLACK WHITE ISSUE. BUT ACTUALLY, SADLY, THE HISTORY OF EXCLUSION IN AMERICA KIND OF COVERS A LOT OF PEOPLE, HOW DOES HOW DOES THIS PLAY OUT ULTIMATELY, DO YOU THINK? PROF. GORDON-REED: I DO THINK THAT BROADENING THIS, MAKING THIS NOT JUST ABOUT BLACKS AND WHITES, BUT AS YOU SAID ABOUT BLACKS AND ASIANS AND OTHERS IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT. AND I THINK THERE ARE SIGNS THAT THESE GROUPS ARE FORMING COMMON CAUSE. I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY’RE FIGHTING A THIS NOTION OF WHITE SUPREMACY THAT DOESN’T JUST AFFECT BLACK PEOPLE AND ASIAN PEOPLE AFFECTS WHITE PEOPLE, TOO. I MEAN, IT’S IT LIMITS ALL OF US IN WAYS. I PREFER TO BE HOPEFUL ABOUT THINGS, HISTORY. WE DON’T WANT TO THINK WE ARE SKIPPING TOWARDS SOME INEVITABLE WONDERFUL END, BUT WE HAVE MADE PROGRESS. SOLEDAD: PROFESSOR ERIC FONER, PROFESSOR ANNETTE GORDON REED, THANK YOU TO BOTH OF YOU FOR JOINING ME. THESE PHOTOS OF BORDER CROSSINGS ALONG THE RIO GRANDE OF TEXAS TELL THE CONTINUING STORY OF IMMIGRATION. UNACCOMPANIED MINORS RISKING THEIR LIVES TO CROSS. YOUNG CHILDREN BEING GREETED BY THE BORDER PATROL, CERTAIN TO BE DETAINED, MOST WITH A VERY UNCERTAIN FUTURE. TO GIVE VOICE TO THE UNDOCUMENTED, WE ENLISTED A PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST AN EMMY NOMINATED , FILMMAKER, AND TONY-NOMINATED PRODUCER. A MAN WHO GREW UP UNDOCUMENTED. WHO CAME TO AMERICA AS A CHILD AND IS NOW A LEADING VOICE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS FOR IMMIGRANTS. HE’S THE AUTHOR OF DEAR AMERICA, NOTES OF AN UNDOCUMENTED CITIZEN. JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS. JOSE: AT 40, HAVING LIVED IN THIS COUNTRY FOR MOST OF MY LIFE, I AM STILL UNDOCUMENTED. I WAS THREE MONTHS TOO OLD FOR DACA. I AM SUBJECT TO DEPORTATION AND BE KICKED OUT OF THE COUNTRY THAT I CALL MY HOME. IT’S NO DIFFERENT THAN THE LIMBO THAT SO MANY OF US HAVE BEEN LIVING IN FOR SO LONG. IN MANY WAYS, THE PANDEMIC FOR ME HAS MIRRORED THE EXPERIENCE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT IN THE UNITED STATES. THE LACK OF MOVEMENT, THE INABILITY TO SEE BEYOND THE HORIZON. I HAVEN’T SEEN MY MOTHER IN ALMOST 30 YEARS AND WITH THE PANDEMIC THAT DISTANCE FEELS EVEN GREATER BECAUSE IT’S MIXED WITH THE FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN THAT LIVES IN EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW. WHEN I THINK OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AMERICAN, I OFTEN THINK A LOT ABOUT LANGUAGE, HOW IT SHAPES OUR PLACE IN THE WORLD AND HOW IT AFFECTS OTHERS, HOW WORDS HAVE POWER AND STORIES HAVE POWER. TIME AND TIME AGAIN I COME BACK TO SOME CRUCIAL QUESTIONS, WHERE DID YOU COME FROM, HOW DID YOU GET HERE, WHO PAID? ALL ACROSS AMERICA, IN FRONT OF DIVERSE AUDIENCES I’VE ASKED THOSE THREE QUESTIONS. AFTER ASKING A STUDENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA WHERE HE WAS FROM, HE SAID, I’M AMERICAN. I KNOW, I SAID. BUT WHERE ARE YOU FROM? I’M WHITE, HE REPLIED. BUT WHITE IS NOT A COUNTRY, I SAID. AND, IF WHITE IS NOT A COUNTRY THEN WHITE IS NOT OUR ONLY STORY. AND, IF IT’S NOT OUR ONLY STORY, WE NEED TO CONSIDER OUR LANGUAGE VERY CLOSELY, AND OUR STORIES. WE’RE NOT GOING TO GET VERY FAR ON COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION POLICIES UNTIL WE CONFRONT THE ISSUES IN OUR CULTURE. IT’S THE AMERICAN STORY. AND, THAT STORY IS CHANGING EVERY DAY, GROWING IN WAYS THAT WE COULD NEVER IMAGINE AND THE LIVING, BREATHING HISTORY OF WHO WE ARE AND WHO WE WILL BE. SOLEDAD: OUR THANKS TO JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS FOR SHARING HIS STORY. IN 2019 NEARLY 900,000 IMMIGRANTS BECAME U.S. CITIZENS. THE LAST STEP ON THE ROAD TO BECOMING A CITIZEN IS THE CITIZENSHIP TEST. WE’VE GIVEN YOU A CHANCE TO TAKE A SHORT FORM OF THAT TEST. LET’S REVIEW THE THREE QUESTIONS WE ASKED EARLIER IN THE SHOW. AND, GIVE YOU THE ANSWERS. HOW MANY AMENDMENTS DOES THE CONSTITUTION HAVE? 23. 21. 10. 27. THE ANSWER IS 27. MY PERSONAL FAVORITE IS THE FIRST AMENDMENT, FREE SPEECH, AND THE 19TH AMENDMENT, WHICH GAVE SOME WOMEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE. NEXT QUESTION. THERE WERE 13 ORIGINAL STATES. NAME THREE. WERE THEY MARYLAND, VIRGINIA, AND NORTH CAROLINA. WASHINGTON, OREGON, AND CALIFORNIA. NEW YORK, KENTUCKY, AND GEORGIA. VIRGINIA, NORTH CAROLINA, AND FLORID IF YOU SAID MARYLAND, VIRGINIA AND NORTH CAROLINA, YOU GOT IT RIGHT. THIRD QUESTION, THE FEDERALIST PAPERS SUPPORTED THE PASSAGE OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. NAME ONE OF THE WRITERS. IS IT THOMAS JEFFERSON, GEORGE WASHINGTON, JOHN ADAMS, JAMES MADISON? THE ANSWER IS, JAMES MADISON. THAT LAST QUESTION ABOUT THE FEDERALIST PAPERS WAS ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT FOR THOSE OF YOU TAKING THE TEST. THE OTHERS THAT TRIPPED PEOPLE UP WAS HOW MANY AMENDMENTS DOES THE CONSTITUTION HAVE? THAT’S 27. AND WHEN WAS THE CONSTITUTION WRITTEN? THAT ANSWER IS 1787. SO ARE YOU CURIOUS HOW YOU DID AS A GROUP? WE ARE. SO WE TALLIED UP THE SCORES. 16% FAILED, GETTING LESS THAN 60% RIGHT. 84% PASSED WITH 60% OR MORE CORRECT. 15% PASSED WITH SCORES OF 90% OR BETTER. I HOPE YOUR SCORE HAS YOU FEELING GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF. JUST A NOTE HERE, THOUGH, PEOPLE WHO TAKE THE TEST TO BECOME CITIZENS MUST SCORE 60% OR BETTER TO PASS. AND THEY TAKE A MUCH LONGER TEST. THEIR’S HAS MULTIPLE CHOICE AND FILL-IN-THE-BLANK QUESTIONS. THE AVERAGE PASS RATE FOR APPLICANTS IS 90%. LET’S GET RID OF ANY TEST ANXIETY WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE WHO IS KNOWN FOR MAKING PEOPLE LAUGH. SHE HAS BEEN A STANDUP COMIC SINCE SHE WAS 17. SHE IS THE FIRST LATINA WINNER OF NBC’S STAND UP FOR DIVERSITY SHOWCASE. POR FAVOR, DEN LA BIENVENIA A, GINA BRILLON. GINA: HI, I’M GINA BRILLON. MY BACKGROUND IS PRETTY DOPE. I’M PUERTO RICAN FROM THE SOUTH BRONX. ALL OF MY FRIENDS GROWING UP WERE PRETTY MUCH BLACK AND LATINO UNTIL I WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL. THEN I DISCOVERED WHITE PEOPLE. AT A CERTAIN POINT IN MY LIFE, I MADE A LOT OF MEXICAN FRIENDS. A LOT OF MY SPANISH SOUNDS VERY MEXICAN, WHICH IS CONFUSING TO MY PUERTO RICAN RELATIVES. BESIDES BEING A PUERTO RICAN WHO SOUNDS INCREDIBLY MEXICAN WHEN SHE SPEAKS SPANISH, I AM LATINA, BUT ALSO I AMERICAN. AMI AM NOT AMERICAN ENOUGH FOR THE AMERICANS, NOT LATINO ENOUGH FOR THE LATINOS. THE AMERICAN DREAM, TO ME WAS THIS IDEA OF HAVING ENOUGH MONEY TO LIVE COMFORTABLY, NOT HAVING TO WORK JUST TO LIVE, BUT HAVING EXPENDABLE INCOME AND BEING ABLE TO HAVE NICE THINGS AND YOU KNOW, HAVE THE WHITE PICKET FENCE AND 2.5 KIDS AND THE PERFECT DOG AND EVERYTHING. AS I GET OLDER, IT DOES NOT SEEM REALISTIC. THE AMERICAN DREAM TO A LOT OF LATINOS IS LIKE THE WORM ON THE HOOK THAT GETS YOU HERE TO AMERICA, LIKE THEY DANGLE IT IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOU’RE LIKE, OH, MY GOODNESS, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO BE IN AMERICA. THEN, THEY JUST PLAYED ME. THEY DANGLE THIS IN FRONT OF ME, BUT IT IS NOT REALLY FOR ME. IF I COULD DO AN IMPRESSION OF SOMEBODY LIVING THE AMERICAN DREAM, IT’S THAT VERY STEREOTYPICAL HI, WELCOME TO MY HOUSE. DO YOU HAVE A CAR? WE HAVE A THREE-CAR GARAGE. WE ACTUALLY HAVE SIX CARS, BUT WE ONLY PARK 3 IN THERE. JUST THE THREE NICE THE OTHER ONES. ONES ARE TESLAS, THEY’RE TRASH. WE HAVE THEM OUTSIDE. YOU WANT TO COME IN? WE HAVE SO MANY SNACKS. I GREW UP AROUND A LOT OF HOOD PEOPLE. AND THEIR REACTION TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, TO THE IDEA OF THE AMERICAN DREAM OR SOMEBODY WHO’S LIVING IT IS MORE LIKE, OH, I SEE. YOU THINK YOU BETTER THAN ME. YOU KNOW WHAT, I DON’T WANT YOU YOU’RE NOT AN EXAMPLE TO ME. , YOU ARE LIKE A PUNCH IN THE FACE, LIKE YOU’RE SO DISRESPECTFUL, WITH YOUR SUCCESS AND WITH YOUR DREAM AND EVERYTHING. ENJOY YOUR LIFE. WHY DON’T YOU HELP US OUT? WHY DON’T YOU HELP PEOPLE OUT THAT YOU SAID YOU WOULD HELP OUT IN THE HOOD? WHY DON’T YOU GIVE SOME MONEY BACK? NO, YOU BOUGEIOSIE NOW. I DON’T THINK THE FLOOR IS LEVELED FOR HISPANICS AND LATIN AMERICANS AT ALL IN TERMS OF THE AMERICAN DREAM. I JUST DON’T THINK IT IS. I THINK WE COME IN ON THIS PROMISE THAT OH, YOU CAN HAVE THIS AMERICAN DREAM. YOU REALLY CAN YOU CAN HAVE EVERYTHING YOU WANT. AND THEN AS SOON AS WE STEP UP, THEY’RE LIKE, OH, NOT YOU. NEXT YOU CAN HAVE THIS AMERICAN DREAM. OH, NO, NO, NO, NOT YOU. WHERE ARE YOU FROM? OK, NOW YOU HAVE AN ACCENT. OH, NO, YOU’RE AFRO-LATINA. NO, I’M SORRY. NOT YOU. AND IT’S ALWAYS LIKE WE ARE JUST ON THE LINE. IT’S LIKE BEING AT THE DMV OR JUST ON THE LINE WAITING UNTIL YOUR TURN COMES UP AND IT JUST NEVER COMES UP. IN MY OPINION WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT AMERICA, WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO. WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO TO EQUALITY. WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE EVERYTHING SEEMS FAIR. WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE LATINOS IN THIS COUNTRY FEEL LIKE THEY CAN ACTUALLY ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM. SOLEDAD: GINA’S TAKE ON THE AMERICAN DREAM RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW REALISTIC ACHIEVING IT IS. THOSE WHO STUDY THE DECLINE OF THE DREAM, SAY WE CAN REVERSE OUR COURSE IF WE DO A FEW THINGS -- DECREASE RESIDENTIAL SEGREGATION. INCREASE SOCIAL CAPITAL. AND INVEST IN HIGHER QUALITY PUBLIC SCHOOLS. IF THAT’S THE FORMULA, THEN WHERE IN AMERICA ARE A CHILD’S CHANCES OF MOVING UP BETTER? SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT JOIE CHEN LOOKS AT THE MAPPING OF AMERICA AND MOVING UP. JOIE: WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE TRACKS, EVEN WHEN IT IS JUST THE VERY EDGE OF PRIVILEGE. THAT’S MY STORY. AND MY HOUSE. THE HOUSE I GREW UP IN, THE LAST HOUSE BEFORE THE TRACKS. IN THE LATE 1960’S WE WERE THE ONLY ASIAN FAMILY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. I THOUGHT, THE OUTLIERS. BUT THE WHITE KIDS? BLACK KIDS? IN THIS INTEGRATED, PROGRESSIVE ENCLAVE, SURELY THEIR OPPORTUNITIES WERE EQUAL? I THINK WE THOUGHT WE WERE WOKE. DINO: YEAH. NOT THE CASE. JOIE: AT THE SHOREFRONT LEGACY CENTER DINO ROBINSON DOCUMENTS THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS ON CHICAGO’S NORTH SHORE, PARTICULARLY IN OUR DIVERSE SUBURB. DINO: EVANSTON’S GREAT ON PAPER, IN THAT IT LOOKS DIVERSE. LOOKS GREAT. BUT WHEN YOU DRIVE THROUGH EVANSTON, YOU CAN SEE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN NEIGHBORHOODS, AND HOW THEY HAVE BEEN DIVIDED ALL THROUGHOUT ITS HISTORY. JOIE: THOSE DIVISIONS ARE PART OF EVANSTON’S ORIGIN STORY, AN EARLY VERSION OF THE GREAT MIGRATION AT THE START OF THE 20TH CENTURY. DINO: OUR TIMEFRAME IN THIS WAY IT’S ABOUT 1910 AND 1930, WHERE YOU HAD A HUGE INFLUX OF BLACK FAMILIES COMING DIRECTLY FROM, SPECIFICALLY, ABBEVILLE, SOUTH CAROLINA, AND THAT WAS DUE TO A TRAGEDY WHERE A GENTLEMAN WAS LYNCHED. SO, THERE WAS A MASS EXODUS OF BLACK FAMILIES LEAVING THAT AREA OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO COME NORTH TO EVANSTON. JOIE: AS THE BLACK POPULATION GREW, SO DID THE EFFORTS TO CONTAIN IT. AFRICAN AMERICAN FAMILIES WERE PUSHED TOWARD THE WEST SIDE OF TOWN, THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRACKS, THE PINK AREA MARKED AS D-2 ON THIS MAP, WHERE REDLINING SYSTEMATICALLY DEPRESSED REAL ESTATE VALUES, STEERED AWAY INVESTMENT, AND STACKED THE FINANCIAL DECK AGAINST GENERATIONS OF BLACK EVANSTONIANS. THE BLACK KIDS I GREW UP WITH, PARTICULARLY THE BLACK BOYS, DID THEY HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITY THAT I DID? DINO: I WOULD SAY NO. THE BLACK BOYS ESPECIALLY. RAJ: WHEN WE LOOKED, BLOCK AFTER BLOCK, ACROSS THE U.S., AND WE ASKED, IS THERE ANY PLACE WHERE WE CAN SEE BLACK KIDS HAVING AS GOOD OUTCOMES AS WHITE KIDS, THE VERY DISCOURAGING FINDING IS, THERE’S ESSENTIALLY NO SUCH PLACE IN AMERICA. IN 99% OF BLOCKS IN AMERICA, WHITE KIDS AND WHITE MEN IN PARTICULAR HAVE BETTER OUTCOMES THAN BLACK MEN. JOIE: RAJ CHETTY HAS THE DATA TO PROVE IT. HIS OPPORTUNITY ATLAS BREAKS DOWN AMERICA BLOCK BY BLOCK. AND MY HOMETOWN EXACTLY CAPTURES THE STORY OF INEQUALITY IN AMERICA. RAJ: THAT’S WHAT I THINK IS STRIKING ABOUT IT, IS THAT YOU REALLY SEE TWO VERY DIFFERENT PICTURES ON TWO SIDES OF THE RAILROAD TRACK. JOIE: OFTEN SEEN AS A MODEL OF SOCIAL ENGINEERING THROUGH EDUCATION, THE CITY HAS JUST ONE GIANT PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL, EVANSTON TOWNSHIP, OR ETHS. WHERE ENROLLMENT REACHED NEARLY 6000 IN THE EARLY WITH THE SAME 1970’S, ACADEMICS AND ACTIVITIES PROMISED TO ALL. THE NUMBERS DON’T LIE. RAJ: THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT. THE NUMBERS DON’T LIE. WE MAY PERCEIVE PEOPLE ARE HAVING SIMILAR EXPERIENCES, WE MAY PERCEIVE THEY ARE INTEGRATED BUT WHEN YOU’RE LOOKING AT HOW , KIDS ARE DOING 10, YEARS 20 YEARS AFTER GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL, THEIR LIFE TRAJECTORIES LOOK VERY DIFFERENT BY RACE AND ETHNICITY. THAT’S JUST A FACT. JOIE: THAT’S NOT THE WHOLE STORY. CHETTY SAYS FRIENDS, MENTORS, SOCIAL NETWORKS ALL PLAY A ROLE. AS DOES THAT AGE-OLD QUESTION, WHERE ARE YOU FROM? RAJ: WHAT WE’VE LEARNED IS WHERE YOU GROW UP REALLY MATTERS FOR YOUR CHANCES OF ACHIEVING THE AMERICAN DREAM SO BASICALLY WHERE YOU LIVE FROM BIRTH, TO SAY YOUR EARLY 20’S, SEEMS TO MATTER A GREAT DEAL, AND EVERY YEAR THAT YOU GREW UP IN A BETTER NEIGHBORHOOD, A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH BETTER SCHOOLS, BETTER ACCESS TO OPPORTUNITIES, THE BETTER YOU END UP DOING IN THE LONG RUN. JOIE: DEPENDING ON YOUR CHILDHOOD ADDRESS, THE JOURNEY TO THAT AMERICAN DREAM MAY BE SHORTER AND EASIER TO TRAVEL. DINO: MY FIRST THOUGHT WOULD NOT BE, WHERE ARE YOU FROM? AS FAR AS I KNOW, YOU GREW UP HERE, YOU’RE AN EVANSTONIAN. JOIE: EVEN WHEN IT’S A LITTLE HOUSE JUST ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE TRACKS. FOR MATTER OF FACT, I’M JOIE CHEN, IN EVANSTON, ILLINOIS. SOLEDAD: THANK YOU, JOIE. IT’S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE UPWARD MOBILITY WITHOUT EDUCATION. STUDIES SHOW INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION CAN INCREASE UPWARD MOBILITY AND EASE INCOME INEQUALITY. FOR OUR NEXT GUEST, EDUCATION IS JUSTICE. TEACHING IS A VOCATION. AND THE GOAL IS LEVELING THE PLANE OF POSSIBILITY. I SPOKE WITH AUTHOR, ACTIVIST, AND EDUCATOR, ILYASAH SHABAZZ, WHOSE AMERICAN STORY INCLUDES THE LEGACY OF HER PARENTS, MALCOLM X, AND DR. BETTY SHABAZZ. ILYASAH SHABAZZ, IT’S SO NICE TO HAVE YOU WITH US. YOU SAID THIS ONCE, AND I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS. YOU SAID, A SOCIETY IN WHICH PEOPLE FEEL MOBILIZED, CENTERED AND INVESTED WITH PURPOSE IS A SOCIETY WHOSE CITIZENS CAN LOVE THEMSELVES. YOU SEE CURRENTLY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO VALUE THOSE THAT DON’T LOOK LIKE THEMSELVES, TO THINK OF OTHERS AS AS AMERICAN AS THEY ARE? ILYASAH: WELL, FIRST, IT’S SUCH AN HONOR TO BE HERE WITH YOU. BUT, YOU KNOW, I DON’T KNOW IF WE REALLY DO LOVE OURSELVES. MY MOTHER MADE SURE THAT HER DAUGHTERS, HER SIX DAUGHTERS, LEARN TO LOVE THEMSELVES. WE LEARNED ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTIONS THAT ISLAM MADE TO THE WORLD. WE LEARNED ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTIONS THAT WOMEN MADE TO THE WORLD. AND WE LEARNED ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTIONS THAT AFRICA AND THE DIASPORA AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN FIRST WORLD NATIONS GAVE TO THE WORLD. AND SO THERE’S THIS TRUE LOVE OF SELF, RIGHT? AND THEN SEEING YOU AS A REFLECTION OF ME. AND SO IT MAKES ME TRULY LOVE AND RESPECT YOU. SOLEDAD: THERE IS A PHOTO, A GREAT PHOTO. IT IS YOUR MOM AND YOUR FATHER AND MUHAMMAD ALI. TELL ME ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP. ILYASAH: HE WAS HIS MENTOR, HIS MINISTER AS WELL. AND MUHAMMAD ALI SAID HAD HE NEVER MET MALCOLM, THAT HIS EPITAPH WOULD HAVE READ, HERE LIES THE GREATEST BOXER THAT EVER LIVED. BUT BECAUSE HE MET MALCOLM AND BECAUSE MALCOLM WAS HIS TEACHER, THAT IT CAME TO READ SO MUCH MORE. SOLEDAD: WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT PICTURE, WHAT DOES IT REMIND YOU AND WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU? ILYASAH: WHEN I LOOK AT THE PICTURE, JUST, YOU KNOW, REMINDS ME OF A FAMILY, YOU KNOW, THE FREEDOM TO BE HUMAN. I AM SO HAPPY THAT MUHAMMAD ALI AND MY FATHER GOT TO EXPERIENCE THIS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, THIS UNCONDITIONAL BROTHERHOOD AND TRUST. THEN WHEN I LOOK AT MY MOTHER, YOU KNOW, I’M SURE SHE WAS JUST SO HAPPY TO BE WITH HER HUSBAND BECAUSE SHE JUST THOUGHT THE WORLD OF HIM. I LOOK AT MY SISTERS -- AGAIN, THAT FREEDOM JUST TO EXIST AND BE. SOLEDAD: THERE ARE TIMES THAT I LOOK AROUND AND I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE WRITTEN SOME PEOPLE OFF. I SEE IT A LOT WHEN YOU LOOK AT POOR PEOPLE OR SOMETIMES PEOPLE OF COLOR AND OUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT? ILYASAH: I THINK IT IS CHANGING SOMEWHAT, RIGHT? BECAUSE MALCOLM GAVE THE BIGGEST CRITIQUE OF AMERICA AND HE INSISTED THAT AMERICA LIVE UP TO HER PROMISE OF LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. AND HE BELIEVED THAT IT WOULD BE THIS GENERATION THAT WOULD RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE IN POWER HAVE MISUSED IT AND DEMAND CHANGE AND THAT THEY WOULD BE WILLING TO ROLL UP THEIR SLEEVES AND DO THE NECESSARY WORK. AND SO I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO THIS GENERATION. I WOULD JUST SAY, DO NOT STOP. DON’T GET COMFORTABLE. DO NOT STOP. GIVE IT YOUR ALL. SOLEDAD: IT’S SO NICE TO HAVE YOU. THANKS FOR TALKING WITH ME. ILYASAH: THANK YOU. >> HELLO, MY NAME IS EDGAR VILLAIN WAVA I AM AN AUTHOR, JUSTICE ACTIVIST. WHAT I THINK ABOUT BEING AMERICAN, IT IS THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO LIVE IN MY MULTIPLE IDENTITIES AS A NATIVE AMERICAN, AS SOMEONE FROM THE SOUTH WHO HAS A SOUTHERN ACCENT, SOMEONE PEOPLE THINK MIGHT BE PUERTO RICO AND FROM NEW YORK. SOMEONE WHO HAS A VERY LATINX NAME. I HAVE FELT NOT AMERICAN AT TIMES, IT STARTED WHEN I WAS FIVE YEARS OLD WHEN MY MOTHER MOVED FROM OUR NATIVE COMMUNITY, MOVED US TO THE CITY OF RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA, SO I WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO BETTER PUBLIC SCHOOLS. THAT WAS A SAD MOMENT THAT WE HAD TO CHANGE OUR PLACE IN ORDER FOR ME TO HAVE BETTER OPPORTUNITIES. I WAS THE ONLY NATIVE AMERICAN THROUGH MY ENTIRE K-12 EXPERIENCE IN SCHOOL. I HAD TO DO MY ENTIRE LIFE INDIAN 101, EXPLAIN WHO I AM, WHERE I AM FROM, AND YES, NATIVE AMERICANS STILL EXIST. YES, WE LIVE IN CITIES, YES, WE PAY TAXES. NO, I DON’T GET FREE COLLEGE. MY DREAM IS WE WILL GET TO A PLACE WHERE IT IS OK FOR ME TO BE NATIVE AMERICAN AND EMBODY THOSE IDENTITIES AND TO CELEBRATED FOR THEM. SOLEDAD: FOR ABOUT 40% OF THE NATION, THE ECONOMIC ISSUE IS NOT UPWARD MOBILITY. IT’S ECONOMIC SURVIVAL. PRE-PANDEMIC STUDIES SHOW ROUGHLY 4 IN 10 AMERICANS HAVE LESS THAN $400 IN SAVINGS. 17% OF U.S. ADULTS CAN’T PAY THEIR BILLS IN FULL EVERY MONTH. AND ABOUT 25% OF AMERICANS SKIPPED NECESSARY MEDICAL CARE LAST YEAR BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T AFFORD IT. COVID-19 HAS MADE THE SITUATION MUCH WORSE, ESPECIALLY FOR COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, WHERE JOB LOSS HAS BEEN GREATEST. THAT MEANS THE AMERICAN DREAM IS AT BEST DEFERRED, IF NOT DENIED. VALERIE WILSON IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE’S PROGRAM ON RACE, ETHNICITY AND THE ECONOMY, AND AN EXPERT ON THE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OF AMERICA’S PEOPLE OF COLOR. EDGAR VILLANUEVA IS AN ENROLLED MEMBER OF THE LUMBEE TRIBE OF NORTH CAROLINA, A PHILANTHROPIST, AND AUTHOR OF DECOLONIZING WEALTH, INDIGENOUS WISDOM TO HEAL DIVIDES AND RESTORE BALANCE. EDGAR VILLANUEVA, VALERIE WILSON, NICE TO HAVE YOU BOTH WITH ME. THANKS FOR TALKING WITH ME. EDGAR, I’M GOING TO START WITH YOU, IF I MAY. WHAT IS IN YOUR MIND, THE , AMERICAN DREAM? WHAT IS IT? WHAT DOES IT MEAN? AND HAS THAT DEFINITION CHANGED OVER THE YEARS? EDGAR: I THINK THE AMERICAN DREAM IS AN ASPIRATION. IT IS THE HOPE ONE DAY WE CAN ALL BE EQUAL, HAVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, ACCESS AND THRIVE. I DO THINK, HOWEVER, THAT THE AMERICAN DREAM IS A DREAM DEFERRED. IT’S RELEGATED TO IDENTITY AND PLACE. AND SO ALL OF US ARE NOT EQUALLY BENEFITING FROM THE OPPORTUNITY TO ACHIEVE THIS DREAM. VALERIE, DO YOU THINK THE DREAM IS DEFERRED OR THE DREAM IS REAL? VALERIE: I THINK THE AMERICAN DREAM IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN CENTRAL TO OUR NATIONAL IDENTITY. IT DEFINITELY IS A MOTIVATING AND DRIVING FACTOR IN CAPITALISM. SO IT’S ESSENTIAL TO FUELING OUR ECONOMY, BUT IT IS, IN FACT ELUSIVE FOR A SIGNIFICANT SHARE OF THE POPULATION. IRONICALLY, TO THE EXTENT THAT THE AMERICAN DREAM IS ALIVE, I THINK MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES, THOSE WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO FACE BARRIERS TO ACHIEVING THEIR OWN AMERICAN DREAM, ARE THE ONES WHO KEEP IT ALIVE BY CONSTANTLY HOLDING UP A MIRROR AND REALLY CHALLENGING THIS COUNTRY TO LIVE UP TO WHAT IT HAS PROMISED. I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT THE RISE OF ECONOMIC INEQUALITY OVER THE -- INEQUALITY, IT IS OBVIOUS WE’RE A GROWING SHARE OF THE POPULATION AND DISPROPORTIONATELY IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR. ACHIEVING THAT AMERICAN DREAM HAS GOTTEN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT. SOLEDAD: EDGAR, WHEN MY PARENTS CAME TO THIS COUNTRY IN THE 1950’S, I THINK A LOT OF THE CONVERSATION ABOUT OPPORTUNITY MEANT A PLACE WHERE YOU COULD ACCOMPLISH CERTAIN THINGS, NOT NECESSARILY MONEY, BUT IT FEELS LIKE TODAY THAT CONVERSATION HAS REALLY SHIFTED TO ACQUISITION OF WEALTH. EDGAR: IN AMERICA, WE HAVE THIS INDIVIDUALISTIC IDEA HERE THAT WE MUST PULL UP OUR BOOTSTRAPS AND BUILD WEALTH FOR OUR FAMILIES, BUT WHAT’S HAPPENED BECAUSE OF OUR SYSTEM OF CAPITALISM THAT REALLY STEMS BACK TO OUR HISTORY OF COLONIZATION, FRANKLY, AND THE -- WE HAVE AN IDEA OF WEALTH THAT IS VERY MUCH ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL, ABOUT ABOUT MINE AND WE’VE DETACHED OURSELVES FROM HOW WE ARE ACTUALLY RELIANT ON EACH OTHER TO THRIVE. AND SO I KNOW IN MY COMMUNITY, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WEALTH, IT’S WEALTH OF COMMUNITY. SOLEDAD: AND OF COURSE, VALERIE, HISTORICALLY, THE ACQUISITION OF WEALTH WAS VERY UNEQUAL. VALERIE: YOU COULD GO AS FAR AS TO SAY NOT ONLY WERE SOME PEOPLE EXCLUDED FROM BEING ABLE TO ACQUIRE WEALTH, BUT BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO WERE ENSLAVED WERE ACTUALLY PROPERTY. SO THEY WERE A SOURCE OF WEALTH . THE DISPARITY IS HISTORIC. ONE WAY WE CONTINUE TO SEE THE WEALTH GAP CONTINUE IS THROUGH DISPARITIES IN INHERITANCE, THE ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO PASS ON WEALTH. IT DOES GO FAR BEYOND A SINGLE GENERATION. SOLEDAD: WHEN YOU LOOK AT MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD WEALTH AND WHAT IS UNFOLDING TODAY, CORONAVIRUS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE, THAT IS ONLY MAKING THAT SO MUCH WORSE BECAUSE OF THE DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT. CAN THIS GAP BE CLOSED? VALERIE: I THINK THE WEALTH GAP CAN BE CLOSED AND IT SHOULD BE CLOSED. IN PARTICULAR, WE HAVE BROUGHT THINGS INTO FOCUS THROUGH CORONAVIRUS AND ITS IMPACT. THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE LEAST PREPARED OR LEAST ABLE TO WEATHER AND EXTENDED PERIOD OF UNEMPLOYMENT ARE THOSE BEARING THE HEAVIEST BURDEN IN THIS CRISIS. OUR ABILITY AS A NATION TO EXPAND THAT AND RECOVER IS DEPENDENT ON EVERY HOUSEHOLD, EVERY FAMILY BEING ABLE TO MAKE , IT THROUGH THAT. REALLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT KINDS OF POLICIES AND CHANGES THAT NEED TO TAKE PLACE SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS THESE LONGSTANDING DISPARITIES AND GAPS IN WEALTH AND EMPLOYMENT AND INCOME AND HEALTH. WE CAN GO ON AND ON. SO THAT AS A COUNTRY, AS A NATION, WE’RE MUCH STRONGER. SOLEDAD: VALERIE WILSON AND EDGAR VILLANUEVA, THANK YOU GUYS FOR TALKING WITH ME. EDGAR: THANKS FOR HAVING US. VALERIE: THANK YOU. SOLEDAD: THROUGHOUT OUR CONVERSATIONS, WE’VE HEARD PEOPLE REFLECT ON WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE MARGINALIZED IN AMERICA. THE SHOW WOULD NOT BE COMPLETE WITHOUT INCLUDING THE VOICE OF SOMEONE WHO KNOW WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE MULTIPLY MARGINALIZED. HERE IS LYDIA X. Z. BROWN. A DISABILITY JUSTICE ADVOCATE, ORGANIZER, EDUCATOR, ATTORNEY, STRATEGIST, AND WRITER. >> EVERYBODY HAS DIFFERENT IDENTITY AND EXPERIENCE. FOR ME AND FOR EVERYBODY, IDENTITY IS COMPLEX. IT’S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO SAY THAT I AM JUST A DISABLED PERSON OR I’M JUST A QUEER PERSON OR I’M JUST AN EAST ASIAN PERSON. I AM ALL OF THOSE THINGS. I EXPERIENCE MARGINALITY IN MANY OF THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT I MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD. THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE I AM A PERSON WHO IS IN THE ROOM WHO DOES HAVE MORE PRIVILEGE AND WHO DOES HAVE MORE RESOURCES BECAUSE I’M COLLEGE EDUCATED, I’M A LAWYER, I’M A LIGHT SKINNED PERSON OF COLOR, AND I’M NOT VERY OBVIOUSLY PHYSICALLY DISABLED IN ANY WAY. THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH I CAN MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD AND PEOPLE WILL SEE ME AS A PERSON WHO BELONGS. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, I FEEL THAT PEOPLE SEE ME AS SOMEONE WHO DOESN’T BELONG, THAT I’M OUT OF PLACE MOST OF THE TIME. THE FEELING THAT HAS STUCK WITH ME SINCE CHILDHOOD IS A FEELING OF ALIENATION WHERE I FEEL THAT NO MATTER WHERE I AM, THERE’S SOMETHING OFF. A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT WHAT WE SHOULD STRIVE FOR IS EQUALITY. AND ON THE SURFACE, THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. RIGHT? YOU ARE THINKING, I WANT THINGS TO BE EQUAL I WANT PEOPLE TO BE , TREATED THE SAME. ISN’T THAT THE FAIREST WAY TO DO THINGS? BUT TAKE IT THIS WAY. YOU HAVE A BUILDING AND THERE’S ONE ENTRANCE AND THE ENTRANCE TO THAT BUILDING IS AT THE TOP OF A FLIGHT OF STAIRS. AND BY THE WAY, THIS BUILDING IS ALSO LOCATED IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. SO TECHNICALLY, THERE’S EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. EVERYBODY HAS AN EQUAL CHANCE TO ENTER THAT BUILDING BECAUSE THERE’S ONE WAY THAT EVERYBODY CAN GET IN. JUST GO IN THE FRONT DOOR. BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT’S NOT ACTUALLY EQUAL FOR EVERYONE BECAUSE NOT EVERYBODY CAN USE THE STAIRS AND NOT EVERYBODY HAS TRANSPORTATION TO GET TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO PULL BACK ON THIS ANALOGY OR THIS METAPHOR, NOT EVERYONE PROBABLY EVEN KNOWS THAT THIS BUILDING EXISTS. IT IS EQUAL, BUT IS IT REALLY FAIR? AND THAT’S WHAT’S AT THE CORE OF THE CONVERSATION. WE TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EQUALITY AND EQUITY. EQUALITY IS, LET’S TREAT PEOPLE ALL THE SAME. AND EQUITY IS, HOW CAN WE TREAT PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT IS ACTUALLY FAIR, GIVEN THE REAL LIFE CONDITIONS THAT PEOPLE LIVE THROUGH? A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF DISABLED FOLKS AS BEING SOMEHOW SEPARATE FROM OUR DISABILITIES. DISABILITY JUSTICE TEACHES US THAT THERE IS NO WRONG WAY FOR BODIES TO LOOK OR MOVE, FOR BRAINS TO WORK, THAT NONE OF US ARE BAD OR BROKEN OR DEFECTIVE. AND I THINK OF US AS WHOLE PEOPLE. IF YOU’RE WATCHING THIS AND YOU SEE YOURSELF AND YOU THINK, WOW, THAT SOUNDS A LOT LIKE ME, IF PEOPLE DON’T SEE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE, IF PEOPLE REFUSE YOUR HUMANITY OR DENY YOUR HUMANITY, THAT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. YOU ARE NOT BROKEN. YOU ARE NOT LESS THAN. YOU DON’T HAVE TO KNOW ALL THE WORDS TO DESCRIBE ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU’RE FEELING, TO KNOW THAT YOU MATTER THAT YOU BELONG, , THAT YOU DESERVE TO BE HERE, THAT YOU DESERVE EVERYTHING. SOLEDAD: A JUST SOCIETY IS OFTEN DEFINED AS ONE IN WHICH EVERYONE IS TREATED EQUALLY. IN AMERICA, WE USE EQUALITY AS A SYNONYM FOR JUSTICE. SOCIOLOGIST BRUCE WESTERN, OF THE COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY JUSTICE LAB HAS BEEN STUDYING AMERICA’S , CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM FOR 30 YEARS, SINCE HE CAME TO AMERICA FROM AUSTRALIA AS A GRADUATE STUDENT. HE SAYS THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IN AMERICA HAS A CREATED SECOND-CLASS CITIZENSHIP IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND CALLS REFORM OUR MOST URGENT MORAL ISSUE. BRUCE WESTERN, SO NICE TO HAVE YOU. HOW DOES THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM DIMINISH CITIZENSHIP? BRUCE: THE AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, PARTICULARLY THE SCALE OF INCARCERATION, IS VERY, VERY UNUSUAL. AMERICA ACCOUNTS FOR 25% OF THE WORLD’S INCARCERATED POPULATION, BUT IT ONLY ACCOUNTS FOR ABOUT 4% OF THE ENTIRE WORLD’S POPULATION. BUT ONE IN FOUR PRISONERS IN THE WORLD ARE FROM THE U.S. THERE’S A MASSIVE RACIAL DISPARITY IN INCARCERATION. SO INCARCERATION IS OVERWHELMINGLY CONCENTRATED IN LOW INCOME COMMUNITIES OF COLOR. WHEN YOU COME OUT OF PRISON, YOUR EARNINGS ARE LOWER, YOUR HEALTH IS WORSE, YOUR FAMILIES ARE MORE DISRUPTED. THE CHILDREN OF INCARCERATED PARENTS DO WORSE IN SCHOOLS AT -- SCHOOLS, ARE AT GREATER RISK OF DEPRESSIVE SYMPTOMS. BECAUSE INCARCERATION IS SO CONCENTRATED IN A VERY DISADVANTAGED FRACTION OF AMERICAN SOCIETY, AND IT HAS GOT THESE NEGATIVE EFFECTS IT’S , REALLY CREATED A SECOND CLASS CITIZENSHIP, PARTICULARLY IN LOW INCOME COMMUNITIES OF COLOR. SOLEDAD: GIVE US A SENSE OF WHERE WE ARE NOW IN TERMS OF AMERICAN INCARCERATION. BRUCE: THERE ARE ABOUT 2.1 MILLION PEOPLE IN IN PRISON OR JAIL IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY. AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE INCARCERATED THAN THAN WHITES. AMONG BLACK MEN, RECENT BIRTH COHORTS OF BLACK MEN, THEY NEVER FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL. -- IF THEY NEVER FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL ABOUT 70% HAVE BEEN TO , PRISON AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIVES. IN A GENERATION INCARCERATION JUST BECAME PERVASIVE IN THE LIVES OF BLACK MEN WITH REALLY LOW LEVELS OF SCHOOLING. SOLEDAD: PEOPLE LIKE TO TALK ABOUT SENDING PEOPLE OFF TO PRISON TO REHABILITATE THEM. IS THAT TRUE OR NOT? BRUCE: IT IS A FAIR AS THE POINT. PRISON POPULATION GREW, THE SUPPORT FOR REHABILITATIVE PROGRAMMING RETREATED. WE SAW THAT EDUCATION PROGRAMS, WORK FURLOUGH PROGRAMS, THESE WERE GRADUALLY BEING LOST FROM AMERICAN PRISONS AND THEY BECAME STORAGE FACILITIES. SOLEDAD: WHAT EXPLAINS THE GROWTH OF THE AMERICAN PENAL SYSTEM THAT STARTED IN THE 1990’S? BRUCE: IT REALLY GOES BACK TO THE THERE ARE SOME VERY 1970’S. SPECIFIC CHANGES IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE POLICY, MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCES, THREE STRIKES LONG ENHANCEMENTS FOR , PEOPLE WITH CRIMINAL RECORDS OR WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF VIOLENT OFFENSES. AND THE WAR ON DRUGS, WHICH WAS JUST WHOLESALE CRIMINALIZATION OF DRUG RELATED ACTIVITY, OVERWHELMINGLY FOCUSED IN POOR COMMUNITIES OF COLOR. BUT THEN THERE WAS A POLITICAL BACKDROP TO THIS. THE GROWTH STARTS IN THE 1970’S. THIS IS, IN PART, A BACKLASH TO THE GAINS TO AFRICAN-AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP MADE DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT. AND THERE’S A CONSERVATIVE BACKLASH AGAINST THOSE POLITICS. TOUGH ON CRIME POLITICS BECOMES THE DOMINANT POLITICAL MESSAGE OF THE DAY. SOLEDAD: THERE ARE MANY CALLS AND MANY EFFORTS TO REFORM CRIMINAL JUSTICE. HOW DO YOU SEE THAT PLAYING OUT IN THIS IDEA AROUND IDENTITY AND RACE AND CITIZENSHIP IN THIS COUNTRY? BRUCE: I WANT TO THINK THAT THE GROUND IS BEGINNING TO SHIFT. I THINK THIS IS FIRST AND FOREMOST A RACIAL JUSTICE ISSUE. YOU KNOW, YOU THINK ABOUT THESE STATISTICS, RIGHT? 25% OF THE WORLD’S VISITORS, SEVEN TO ONE RACIAL DISPARITY. COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED IN ANY COUNTRY THAT DID NOT HAVE A HISTORY OF SLAVERY AND JIM CROW? THERE ARE SOME VERY CHALLENGING ISSUES. I THINK WHEN WE STOP -- WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM, THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IN MANY WAYS AND BODIES IDEA. IT’S CHALLENGING TO THINK ABOUT BECAUSE THIS IS AN INSTITUTION THAT IS MEANT TO HELP MAINTAIN PUBLIC SAFETY AND YET IT IS CAUSING GREAT DAMAGE. POLITICALLY, IT IS ENORMOUSLY CHALLENGING. SOLEDAD: BRUCE WESTERN, SO NICE TO TALK TO YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I ASKED BRUCE WESTERN A QUESTION YOU DIDN’T GET TO HEAR. ABOUT HOW WE MOVE FORWARD WITH CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM. HE TOLD ME THAT WILL DEPEND ON HOW WE HANDLE THE CHALLENGE OF FINDING HUMANITY AND COMPASSION FOR THOSE WHO HAVE HARMED OTHERS, BUT WHO COME FROM BACKGROUNDS OF TRAUMA AND VULNERABILITY. WHERE DO WE FIND THAT COMPASSION THAT HUMANITY? , A YOUNG TWO-SPIRIT COUPLE, SEAN AND ADRIAN, SAY ACCEPTANCE IS THE FIRST STEP. THEY HOPE TO FIND IT AS SWEETHEART DANCERS IN NEVADA. THE COUPLE ARE BREAKING DOWN BARRIERS IN THEIR COMMUNITY, PARTICIPATING IN A CELEBRATORY CONTEST USUALLY HELD AT POWWOWS WITH TRADITIONAL COUPLES, ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN, TAKING PART. >> WE ARE NOT THE TYPICAL SWEETHEART PAIR THAT YOU WOULD SEE OUT IN THE ARENA OR DANCING ANYWHERE. WE ARE THE FIRST SAME SEX COUPLE TO GO OUT THERE AND COMPETE WITH OTHER COUPLES. ADRIAN: I AM ADRIAN, I AM TWO SPIRIT. I’M ALSO SHOSHONE-BANNOCK, NORTHERN UTE AND SAN CARLOS APACHE. SEAN: I AM SEAN AND I AM NAVAJO. I AM AN ARTIST AND THIS IS MY PARTNER, ADRIAN. ADRIAN: WHEN I WAS YOUNGER I CAN’T THINK OF A QUEER PERSON PUBLICALLY THAT REPRESENTED ME OR MY LINEAGE OR MY CULTURE. I NEVER SAW THAT IN A SPACE THAT WE ARE DOING TODAY. SEAN: WE SEE OUR DANCING AS A WAY TO HONOR OUR HERITAGE AND WHO WE ARE. ADRIAN: SWEETHEARTS IS REALLY BEING OUT IN THAT ARENA AND SHOWING YOUR LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR ONE ANOTHER. SEAN: WE AS A TWO-SPIRIT COUPLE HAVE FACED A LOT OF CHALLENGES BEING OUT THERE AND JUST BEING OPEN WITH OURSELVES AND OUR IDENTITY. WE PUSHED FOR THE ACCEPTANCE AND REALLY FOUGHT FOR THAT SPACE TO BE OUT THERE AND AMONGST PEOPLE. IT MADE OUR VOICES STRONGER AND OUR PRESENCE STRONGER. ADRIAN: WE’RE ALWAYS THERE TO ENCOURAGE AND SUPPORT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS TRYING TO BE VOCAL. SEAN: I THINK IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER FOR US AS NATIVE AMERICANS OR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO SPEAK UP ABOUT OUR IDENTITIES AND THE ISSUES THAT MATTER TO US. ADRIAN: IT CHOKES ME UP TO TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE WE HEAR SO MANY TIMES OF OUR TWO SPIRIT BROTHERS AND SISTERS LEAVING THIS WORLD AND LEAVING THIS WORLD IN A WAY THAT WE DON’T WANT THEM TO LEAVE. SEAN: IT’S REALLY THE POWER AND THE LOVE THAT WE GET FROM OTHER PEOPLE, AND ESPECIALLY OTHER TWO SPIRIT RELATIVES AND FRIENDS THAT KEEP PUSHING US FORWARD. ADRIAN: I KNOW THAT US BEING TWO SPIRIT AND BEING VERY PUBLIC HAS CREATED THE CONVERSATION FOR A LOT OF NATIVE HOMES, SO THEY MAY NOT TALK ABOUT IT AS THEY SEE US DANCING BUT THERE’S A , CONVERSATION TO BE HAD WHEN THEY GET IN THE CAR OR ON THE RIDE HOME AND OFTEN IT’S VERY POSITIVE. SEAN: IN THE LAST FEW DECADES WE HAVE SEEN MUCH FIGURE ACCEPTANCE WITHIN OUR NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES OF OUR TWO-SPIRIT PEOPLE AND SEEING PEOPLE STANDING UP FOR THEM, MAKING SPACES, AND PROTECTING THEM WHICH IS NICE TO SEE AND VERY HOPEFUL FOR US THAT A LOT OF TRIBES AND INDIVIDUAL NATIONS START RECOGNIZING THEIR LGBT+ QUEER MEMBERS AND THEIR RIGHT AND THEIR IDENTITIES. ADRIAN: WE HAVE LEARNED THAT WE CAN CHANGE THE OPINION ALMOST OF WHAT PEOPLE MAY THINK TWO SPIRIT IS AND THEN WHEN THEY SEE US AND HOW WE CARRY OURSELVES AND HOW WE REPRESENT THE COMMUNITY. SEAN: BE PROUD. BE TRUE. KEEP DANCING. SOLEDAD: THE PAINTING OF ADRIAN AND SEAN WAS DONE BY NATIVE AMERICAN ARTIST DEREK NO-SUN BROWN. HE IS OF SHOSHONE-BANNOCK, KLAMATH, AND ANISHINABE ANCESTRY. THE ARTS AND ARTISTS ADDRESS THE MOST COMPLEX ISSUES IN WAYS THAT ARE TRULY ACCESSIBLE. GREAT STORY TELLING OR PERFORMANCE ART EXPANDS OUR AWARENESS OF OUR WORLD EXPANDS , OUR CONSCIOUSNESS. BOTH ARE TRUE OF ONE FILM GARNERING MULTIPLE AWARD NOMINATIONS, "JUDAS AND THE BLACK MESSIAH." THE MOVIE TELLS THE STORY OF THE BETRAYAL OF FRED HAMPTON, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE ILLINOIS CHAPTER OF THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY BY AN FBI INFORMANT NAMED WILLIAM O’NEAL. HERE’S A CLIP FROM THE FILM. >> IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF VIOLENCE OR NONVIOLENCE, IT IS A QUESTION OF RESUME -- RESISTANCE TO FASCISM. YOU CAN’T MURDER REVOLUTION. YOU CAN MURDER A FREEDOM FIGHTER, BUT YOU CAN’T MURDER FREEDOM. SOLEDAD: SHAKA KING IS AN AMERICAN FILM DIRECTOR, SCREENWRITER, AND FILM PRODUCER. HE DIRECTED AND CO-WROTE THE FRED HAMPTON BIOPIC. SHAKA KING, IT’S SO NICE TO HAVE YOU WITH US. THANKS FOR TALKING. THANK YOU. WHAT WAS THIS STORY YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL WITH "JUDAS AND THE BLACK MESSIAH?" OBVIOUSLY THE STORY, FRED HAMPTON, BUT SO MUCH MORE. SHAKA: ONE WAY TO LOOK AT IT TWO , PEOPLE IN WILLIAM O’NEAL AND FRED HAMPTON, WHO HAD TWO VERY DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF FREEDOM AND POWER AND TWO VERY DIFFERENT WAYS OF GOING ABOUT ATTAINING THEM. AND SO IT WAS AN EXPLORATION OF WHAT THOSE WHAT THOSE LOOK LIKE. SOLEDAD: YOU SAID, I REALLY DO THINK FRED AND THE PANTHERS HAD THE ANSWERS. WHAT WERE THE ANSWERS AND TO WHAT QUESTIONS? SHAKA: TO START WITH, THEIR APPROACH TO LOOKING AT THE ILLS OF SOCIETY THROUGH A CLASS DYNAMIC. AND RECOGNIZING THAT BLACK FOLKS WERE AT THE BOTTOM AND REMAINED AT THE BOTTOM IN TERMS OF AMERICAN APARTHEID. THEY DID NOT SEPARATE THE TWO. THEY WERE LIKE, WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY, BUT ALSO NEED TO ALLY WITH PEOPLE, POOR PEOPLE IN OTHER COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE GLOBE, BECAUSE IF WE DO SO, WE WILL WIN. SOLEDAD: IF I WERE TO STOP PEOPLE IN THE STREET AND ASK THEM TO TELL ME ABOUT THE PANTHERS, MOST WOULD TALK ABOUT VIOLENCE, WEAPONS, DIVISION. YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO PRESENT THE COMPLEXITY OF THE PEOPLE. HOW WAS FRED HAMPTON COMPLEX AND HOW DOES HE DIFFER FROM THE STEREOTYPE THAT I THINK PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE IF THEY REMEMBER OR KNOW OF HIM AT ALL? SHAKA: I THINK HE WAS COMPLEX BECAUSE YOU LOOK AT HIM AS AN INDIVIDUAL. YOU SPEAK TO PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM EVERY THE WAY THEY DESCRIBED HIM AS HAVING THIS VERY YOUTHFUL CHARISMA, BUT ALSO JUST KIND OF A GRAVITAS. PEOPLE HERE -- HEAR HIS SPEECHES AND, YOU KNOW, THEY TAP INTO HIS ENERGY, WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, VERY POWERFUL AND FIERY. YOU ARE LOOKING AT AN INCREDIBLE DIPLOMAT WHO IS ABLE TO UNIFY STREET ORGANIZATIONS IN CHICAGO. WHITE POLITICAL ORGANIZATIONS WITH FAIRLY RACIST TENDENCIES CONTAINED THEREIN. PUERTO RICAN STREET ORGANIZATIONS IN CHICAGO. THE FACT HE WAS ABLE TO DO ALL OF THAT, HE WAS UNSTOPPABLE IN A LOT OF WAYS. SOLEDAD: WHO DO YOU THINK OF AS YOUR AUDIENCE? SHAKA: IT’S TRICKY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, MY ENTIRE CAREER, I’VE ALWAYS PRIORITIZED MYSELF. YOU MAKE A MOVIE OF THIS SCOPE AND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ORGANIZATION THAT HAS BEEN VILIFIED HISTORICALLY, YOU HAVE TO DO A LOT OF CONTEXTUALIZING, NOT JUST FOR, YOU KNOW, A QUOTE UNQUOTE, GENERAL AUDIENCE, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY A WHITE AUDIENCE, BUT ALSO FOR, YOU KNOW, YOUNG BLACK PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THE BLACK PANTHERS, WHO HAVE NOT BEEN TAUGHT ABOUT THIS HISTORY. AND INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BUT JUST HAVE BEEN TAUGHT MISTRUTHS. SOLEDAD: DO YOU THINK THE ARTS HAVE A ROLE IN STRENGTHENING THE AMERICAN NARRATIVE? SHAKA: I THINK ART IS ANOTHER WAY OF TELLING STORIES, ANOTHER WAY OF TEACHING US ABOUT OURSELVES. SOLEDAD: I REMEMBER WATCHING "HIDDEN FIGURES," AND THE NUMBER OF MIDDLE-AGED LADIES WHO WERE STUNNED THOSE WOMEN EXISTED. IT IS OPENING THIS NEW NARRATIVE TO PERFECTLY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY DIDN’T UNDERSTAND THAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED IN ALL FACETS OF THE AMERICAN STORY. SHAKA: BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TAUGHT THAT HISTORY IN SCHOOLS AND HAVE NOT SEEN THAT REFLECTED IN POP CULTURE. SOLEDAD: DO YOU THINK THAT ART CAN FURTHER DIVIDE US OR BRING US TOGETHER? SHAKA: I DON’T THINK YOU COULD DIVIDE US MORE. PEOPLE HAVE MADE THEIR DECISION AS TO WHAT THEY BELIEVE. IT IS VERY HARD FOR ART TO PIERCE THAT SHELL OF ALMOST STUBBORNNESS THAT PEOPLE HAVE , IT IS HARD TO REACH PEOPLE WITH A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE THAN THE ONE YOU ALREADY HAVE. SOLEDAD: NOBODY EVER ASKS WHITE FILMMAKERS, WHAT’S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO THE WHITE COMMUNITY? DO YOU HAVE A BURDEN OF DEPICTING WHITE PEOPLE IN A CERTAIN WAY? BUT I’VE ASKED LOTS OF BLACK FILMMAKERS THAT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS DIFFERENT. DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT? SHAKA: I THINK IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY. I’VE NEVER THOUGHT OF IT AS A BURDEN WHATSOEVER TO BE BLACK OR TO BE A BLACK ARTIST INVESTED IN STORIES FEATURING IN ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE. AND I THINK ALL I EVER FEEL IS A DESIRE TO BE AS SPECIFIC AS I CAN IN TELLING THOSE STORIES SO THAT THE ART IS AS POTENT AS IT -- AS I WANT IT TO BE. SOLEDAD: SHAKA KING, SO NICE TO HAVE YOU. SHAKA: THANKS FOR HAVING ME, IT WAS GREAT. SOLEDAD: IN 1963, THE REVEREND DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. SAID, IT IS APPALLING THAT THE MOST SEGREGATED HOUR OF CHRISTIAN AMERICAN IS 11:00 ON SUNDAY MORNING. ACCORDING TO THE PEW RESEARCH CENTER, THAT’S TRUE TODAY. ABOUT 8 IN 10 AMERICANS ATTEND SERVICES IN A CHURCH WHERE A SINGLE RACIAL OR ETHNIC GROUP MAKES UP 80% OF THE CONGREGATION. TWO PASTORS WE MET IN NORTH CAROLINA, HUSBAND AND WIFE, ARE SEEKING A PATH TO RACIAL RECONCILIATION. EACH WITH THEIR OWN CONGREGATION. ONE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE. THE OTHER, PREDOMINANTLY BLACK. WE CALL THIS STORY REVELATIONS. ♪ SOLEDAD: IN-PERSON SUNDAY SERVICES HAVE FINALLY RESUMED AT PROVIDENCE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH IN SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA. BUT SOCIAL DISTANCING WAS NOT THE ONLY ADJUSTMENT THIS CHURCH HAD TO MAKE IN ITS NEAR 200-YEAR HISTORY. REVEREND ALDANA ALLEN IS BLACK. HIS CHURCH OF 300 MEMBERS IS ENTIRELY WHITE. REV. ALLEN: I WAS DELIBERATELY, AS A BLACK PASTOR, SENT TO WHITE CONGREGATION, I BELIEVE SO THAT WE COULD CONTINUE TO FOSTER RACIAL RECONCILIATION. ♪ SOLEDAD: AND WHAT MESSAGE DO YOU THINK YOU’RE SENDING WHEN YOU’RE STANDING IN THE PULPIT? REV. ALLEN: HOPEFULLY THE FIRST MESSAGE THAT I’M SENDING IS THAT GOD LOVES PEOPLE AND THEN ALSO THAT BLACK AND WHITE BOTH BLEED, BLACK AND WHITE BOTH CRY. ONCE I CAN POINT TOWARD THOSE COMMONALITIES, I CAN ALSO POINT TOWARD A COMMON SOLUTION. SOLEDAD: REVEREND ALLEN WAS THE CHURCH’S FIRST BLACK PASTOR WHEN HE ARRIVED SEVEN YEARS AGO. HE’S USED HIS PULPIT TO ADDRESS THE NATIONAL OUTCRY OVER THE DEATHS OF BLACK AMERICANS AT THE HANDS OF POLICE OFFICERS. REV. ALLEN: FREDDIE GRAY, BREONNA TAYLOR MICHAEL BROWN, , YOU KNOW, THE LIST GOES ON. SO THOSE ARE CERTAINLY TIMES WHENEVER IT HAS WEIGHED MORE HEAVILY ON ME. I DON’T WANT IT TO COME ACROSS AS REACTIONARY. I WAS SPEAKING TO MANY OF THESE ISSUES BEFORE OR EVEN IN BETWEEN INCIDENCES. SOLEDAD: 60 YEARS AGO, NOT FAR FROM THE CHURCH, THE KKK HAD ITS STATE HEADQUARTERS. TODAY, THE COUNTY IS DEEPLY REPUBLICAN. IN THE LAST ELECTION, DONALD TRUMP CARRIED 67% OF THE VOTE HERE. REV. ALLEN: I DID SEE A NEED FOR PEOPLE TO EXPAND WHAT I WOULD CALL THEIR RACE CONSCIOUSNESS. LET’S STAND TOGETHER AND SAYING, GOOD FRIENDS. SOLEDAD: REVEREND ALLEN HAS ORGANIZED WORKSHOPS FOR CHURCH MEMBERS TO HELP THEM BETTER UNDERSTAND SYSTEMIC RACISM. >> WE HAVE ENJOYED HEARING HIS POINT OF VIEW. WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HEAR HIS STORIES OF WHAT HE’S GONE THROUGH. SOLEDAD: CHURCH MEMBER PAM ERVIN WAS AMONG THOSE WHO SIGNED UP FOR THE NINE WEEK WORKSHOP. >> WHEN HE HAS FACED RACISM, HE TOLD US ABOUT THAT. WHEN HE WAS YOUNGER AND WAS SPIT ON. I THINK WE NEED TO HEAR THOSE STORIES IN ORDER FOR US TO HEAL AS A NATION. SOLEDAD: BUT WHILE SHE WENT TO THE WORKSHOP, MOST OTHER CHURCH MEMBERS STAYED AWAY. I THINK AS WHITES, THEY FEEL LIKE, WHY BRING ALL THIS UP? YOU KNOW, THIS WAS 400 YEARS AGO. >> MY CONGREGATION WOULD BE MORE OPEN TO EXPRESS CONCERNS OF RACE MORE FREER THAN MY HUSBAND AND SOME OF HIS MEMBERS. SOLEDAD: MACAULEY-ALLEN IS ALSO A PASTOR. THE MEMBERS OF HER CHURCH, BELLEFONTE PRESBYTERIAN, ARE MOSTLY BLACK. WHAT MAKES IT HARD, DO YOU THINK, TO BE MINISTERING IN A CROSS RACIAL KIND OF SETUP? REV. MACAULEY-ALLEN: JUST THE DIFFERENCE, JUST THE SHEER CULTURAL DIFFERENCE. AND THEN WHEN YOU END UP HAVING TO MEET THE ISSUES AROUND RACE OR HAVE TO DEAL WITH A NATIONAL ISSUE THAT’S HAPPENING, THAT HAS TO BE, AND I KNOW IT IS, VERY CHALLENGING WHEN THAT BUBBLES UP. SOLEDAD: WHEN IT DOES BUBBLE UP FOR THE OTHER REVEREND ALLEN, HIS JOB IS TO LEAD HIS CONGREGATION TOWARD UNDERDSTANDING. REV. ALLEN: IN THE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE CONGREGATIONS, MAYBE THEY AREN’T ABLE TO GRIEVE IT THE SAME WAY THAT I AM. SO AT LEAST IF THEY CAN SEE ME GRIEVING, MAYBE THAT STARTS TO MAKE SOME CONNECTION. THIS IS A TRAGEDY OF EPIC PROPORTIONS, AND THIS DOES NOT NEED TO BE THIS WAY. AS FOLLOWERS OF THE RISEN LORD, WE’RE CALLED TO OPERATE IN SUCH A MANNER THAT IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. SOLEDAD: I WANT TO READ YOU A PASSAGE OF AN ESSAY PRINTED IN THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE. A STORY OF A YOUNG BLACK GIRL, GROWING UP ON THE BLACK SIDE OF AN IOWA TOWN. AT THE EDGE OF OUR LAWN, HIGH ON AN ALUMINUM POLE, SOARED THE FLAG, WHICH MY DAD WOULD REPLACE AS SOON AS IT SHOWED THE SLIGHTEST TATTER. THAT LITTLE GIRL GREW UP TO BE A PULITZER PRIZE WINNING JOURNALIST, WRITING ABOUT AMERICA’S RACIAL DIVIDE AND ISSUES OF RACIAL JUSTICE. IN THE PROCESS, CREATING THE ACCLAIMED NEW YORK TIMES 1619 PROJECT. I’M TALKING ABOUT NIKOLE HANNAH JONES. NICOLE HANNAH JONES, NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN, HOW ARE YOU? >> WELL, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. SOLEDAD: THANK YOU. SO LET’S BEGIN WITH WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN. >> THAT’S SUCH A COMPLICATED QUESTION. IT MEANS BEING PART OF A COUNTRY THAT WAS FOUNDED ON IDEALS OF INNATE FREEDOMS AND LIBERTIES, BUT ALSO THE PRACTICE OF SLAVERY , AND A COUNTRY THAT IS CONTINUING TO GRAPPLE WITH THAT. WHEN YOU JUST LOOK AT THE TAPESTRY OF AMERICA, IT IS KIND OF REFLECTIVE OF THAT HYPOCRISY. SOLEDAD: THE INTRODUCTION OF THE NEW YORK TIMES 16 NINE PROJECT READ THIS, "IN AUGUST OF 1619, A SHIP APPEARED ON PORT COMFORT, A COASTAL PORT ON THE ENGLISH COLONY OF VIRGINIA. IT CARRIED MORE THAN 20 ENSLAVED AFRICANS WHO WERE SOLD TO THE COLONISTS. NO ASPECT OF THE COUNTRY THAT WOULD BE FORMED HERE HAS BEEN UNTOUCHED BY THE YEARS OF SLAVERY THAT FOLLOWED." YOU WROTE THIS ON THE 400TH ANNIVERSARY OF THIS MOMENT. "IT’S FINALLY TIME TO TELL OUR STORY TRUTHFULLY." WHAT MADE THE TIME RIGHT AFTER 400 YEARS? >> I MEAN, THE TIME HAS BEEN RIGHT, YOU KNOW, DECADES AGO, CENTURIES AGO. BUT THIS MOMENT, THIS 400TH ANNIVERSARY, SEEMED LIKE IT PRESENTED A TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY FORCE SOME REFLECTION. OUR COUNTRY ISN’T EVEN 400 YEARS OLD. SO TO BE ABLE TO SAY THAT ONE OF THE OLDEST INSTITUTIONS, INSTITUTION THAT PREDATES THE FOUNDING OF OUR NATION BY ONE HUNDRED 50 YEARS IS SLAVERY, NOT JUST THE MAYFLOWER, BUT A SHIP CALLED THE WHITE LION THAT BROUGHT HUMAN BEINGS TO BE SOLD INTO SLAVERY. THE FOUNDING CONTRADICTIONS, SO MANY OF THE TENSIONS, THE INEQUALITIES WE GRAPPLE WITH TODAY, WHAT LED TO THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD LAST YEAR, WHAT LED TO THE INSURRECTION IN JANUARY, THOSE FOUNDING CONTRADICTIONS DON’T START IN 1776, THEY START IN 1619, YET THE DATE HAD BEEN ERASED. SOLEDAD: DO YOU THINK WE WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE EQUALITY IF YOU CAN’T HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS HISTORICAL FACT? >> WE ABSOLUTELY CANNOT. IF WE DON’T HAVE A SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF THAT UPON WHICH OUR COUNTRY WAS BUILT. YOU CAN’T SIMPLY LOOK AROUND AND SEE THAT BLACK AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY INDICATOR OF WELL-BEING IN THIS COUNTRY. WHATEVER YOU CAN MEASURE, THESE TWO GROUPS SUFFER THE WORST. THOSE ARE THE TWO GROUPS WHO DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE A PART OF AMERICA, WHO HAD AMERICA FORCED UPON THEM. WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT LEGACY AND THEN WE CAN MOVE FORWARD. THIS ATTEMPT TO BURY THE PAST, IT KEEPS LEADING TO THESE EXPLOSIVE MOMENTS. SOLEDAD: "MY DAD ALWAYS FLEW AN AMERICAN FLAG IN OUR YARD, THE BLUE PAINT ON OUR TWO STORY HOUSE WAS PERENNIALLY CHIPPING . THE FENCE OR THE RAIL BY THE STAIRS IN THE FRONT DOOR, ET -- BUT THE FLAG ALWAYS FLEW PRISTINE." I THINK THE FLAG, WHICH IS A SYMBOL OF AMERICA AND AMERICANS IN SOME WAYS HAS AND PATRIOTISM HAS BEEN HIJACKED A LITTLE BIT. WHAT HAS HAPPENED, DO YOU THINK? >> I THINK THE FLAG IS ALWAYS HELD TWO VERY DISTINCT MEANINGS, DEPENDING ON WHAT RACIAL GROUP YOU BELONG TO. AND SO I WOULDN’T EVEN SAY THAT IT’S BEEN HIJACKED. SO WE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR FLAG AND THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER WAS WRITTEN BY AN ENSLAVER. AND SO IT’S ALWAYS BEEN THE SYMBOL FOR WHITE AMERICANS, OFTEN AS KIND OF A SYMBOL OF AMERICAN GREATNESS AND WORN, YOU KNOW, AS A PIN IN THIS OUTWARD DISPLAY OF A PATRIOTISM THAT SAYS YOU CAN’T QUESTION AMERICA, YOU CAN’T CRITICIZE AMERICA. AMERICA CAN DO NO WRONG. BUT BLACK AMERICANS HAVE ALSO ALWAYS KIND OF WRAPPED THEMSELVES IN A FLAG IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY. AND BLACK AMERICANS FOR MORE THAN A CENTURY OF PROTEST HAVE USED THE IMAGE OF THE FLAG TO CLAIM CITIZENSHIP TO TO TRY TO USE THE FLAG TO ALMOST PROTECT OUR PROTEST, TO SAY WE ARE PROTESTING BECAUSE WE ARE AMERICAN AND WE HAVE TO PROTEST WITH THESE FLAGS SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY SHOW THAT WE ARE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY. AND THAT HAS BEEN A PATRIOTISM THAT SAYS THE HIGHEST CALLING OF PATRIOTISM IS TO CRITICIZE YOUR COUNTRY IN ORDER TO MAKE IT BETTER. THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THESE DISTINCT VIEWING OF THE FLAG. WE HAVE SEEN THAT PLAYED OUT NOW, WHERE FOR A LONG TIME, IT HAS BEEN MORE CONSERVATIVE WHO HAVE WANTED TO SAY THAT PATRIOTISM IS UNCRITICAL, WHO WANT TO DEMAND KIND OF FEALTY TO THE FLAG IN AMERICA, WHO’VE KIND OF BEEN ABLE TO CLAIM OWNERSHIP OVER IT. BUT I FEEL THAT BLACK AMERICANS HAVE OFTEN TRIED TO WREST AWAY THAT SENSE OF OWNERSHIP AND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A PATRIOT AND -- TO BE A PATRIOT. SOLEDAD: YOU WRITE ABOUT YOUR DAD FLYING THAT FLAG AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE DUALITY. BUT HE’S IN MISSISSIPPI, WHICH HAS THIS TRACK RECORD OF TERRIBLE VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE, AND REALLY NOT BEING THERE FOR THEM, BUT ALSO THAT HE LOVES AMERICA. SOLEDAD: I MEAN, MY FATHER WAS LIKE GENERATIONS OF BLACK PEOPLE WHO BELIEVED THAT SERVICE TO THEIR COUNTRY WAS HOW THEY COULD FINALLY GET TREATED AND RECOGNIZED AS FULL CITIZENS. SO, YOU KNOW, ALL DAY LONG AS JOURNALISTS WHO WRITE ABOUT RACE, PEOPLE LIKE TO TROT OUT STEREOTYPES AND STATISTICS ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE. WELL, BLACK PEOPLE ARE OVERREPRESENTED IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. BLACK PEOPLE ARE OVERREPRESENTED IN OUT OF WEDLOCK BIRTHS. BUT THE ONE STATISTIC THAT THEY NEVER SEEM TO BRING OUT IS THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE OVERREPRESENTED IN SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY, THAT OF ALL RACIAL GROUPS, WE JOIN THE MILITARY AND SERVE IN THE ARMED FORCES AT THE HIGHEST RATES. AND THAT IS WHAT MY FATHER DID AS WELL. I THINK THAT IS WHERE PEOPLE SEEM TO FORGET, BLACK AMERICANS WERE FIGHTING IN WARS TO DEMOCRATIZE OTHER COUNTRIES, AND COMING HOME AND FACING BRUTAL SUPPRESSION OF THEIR OWN DEMOCRATIC RIGHTS HERE. SO THAT WAS A CLAIM LIKE PEOPLE EVEN MADE IT DURING SLAVERY, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TELL US WE CAN’T BE CITIZENS OF OUR OWN COUNTRY. YOU’RE NOT GOING TO TELL US THAT WE CAN’T CLAIM OWNERSHIP OVER THIS LAND. AND VERY OUTWARDLY, HE WAS SENDING THAT MESSAGE, I THINK. SOLEDAD: I CERTAINLY WAS BROUGHT UP IN A COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT MULTICULTURALISM BEING A GOOD THING, WE’RE THE MELTING POT. TODAY I WONDER IF THAT IS TRUE. DO WE THINK THERE’S A VALUE IN A MULTICULTURAL AMERICA? IT FEELS TO ME LIKE MAYBE NOT. >> THE TRUTH IS, WE’VE BEEN A MULTICULTURAL COUNTRY SINCE 1619. THAT’S WHEN BLACK AMERICANS ARE BROUGHT TO A LAND THAT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OWN AND BY WHITE EUROPEANS. SO AT THAT POINT, WE ARE ALREADY A MULTICULTURAL NATION. THE QUESTION IS, HOW ARE WE GOING TO HAVE A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY? DO WE BELIEVE IN A MULTIRACIAL COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE OF COLOR OR SHARE IN POWER? -- ALL SHARE IN POWER, OR DO WE BELIEVE IN WHAT MOST OF OUR HISTORY WE HAVE BEEN, WHICH IS A MULTIRACIAL COUNTRY LED BY A WHITE ELITE? AND I THINK WHAT WE’RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS THOSE ARE THOSE TWO TENSIONS WHO SHOULD GET TO VOTE, WHO SHOULD HAVE POWER IN ELECTING OUR PRESIDENTS AND OUR SENATORS AND OUR CONGRESS PEOPLE? AND WILL WE ACTUALLY BE A COUNTRY THAT CAN SHARE POWER OR WILL WE BE A COUNTRY THAT CONTINUES TO TRY TO REIFY A WHITE ELITE POWER? THAT’S REALLY THE TENSION. WE CAN’T QUESTION WHETHER WE SHOULD BE A MULTIRACIAL NATION OR NOT. WE ARE. WE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND WE ALWAYS WILL BE. SOLEDAD: EVERY TIME WE WRAPPED AN INTERVIEW FOR THIS SHOW, I’D ASK THE GUEST, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC? MANY CONFESSED THEY WERE USUALLY OPTIMISTIC PEOPLE, BUT ALMOST ALL SAID THEY WERE FACING THESE TIMES WITH A TEMPERED REALISM. MY OWN STORY LEADS ME TO THAT SAME PLACE. WHERE IDEALISM IS HELD IN THE BALANCE WAITING FOR A SHIFT IN THE CULTURE. REALISM ISN’T NEGATIVE. IT’S NEUTRAL. WE DON’T KNOW HOW AMERICA’S STORY WILL TURN OUT. WE’RE STILL WRITING IT. I STARTED THIS SHOW TELLING YOU MY AMERICAN STORY. IT’S ONLY FITTING THAT I SHARE THE REST OF WHAT I HAD TO SAY TO OUR PRODUCERS. >> -- SOLEDAD: SO I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR OR PEOPLE WHOSE PARENTS ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, THE CONVERSATION ABOUT BEING AN AMERICAN IS ONE OF NOT QUITE ENOUGH AND EXCLUSION, AND NOT REALLY EVER BEING ABLE TO BE INCLUDED NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY TO DO. AND I THINK THAT’S INFORMED A LOT OF THE WORK THAT I’VE DONE. I’VE TRIED TO TELL A LOT OF AMERICAN STORIES, AMERICAN STORIES FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE, WHOSE ROOTS ARE IN EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY, WHOSE STORIES ARE FUNNY AND SAD AND TRAGIC AND HOPEFUL AND AMAZING AND INSPIRING AND JUST REGULAR. AND SO I THINK MY AMERICAN STORY IS ABOUT ELEVATING EVERYBODY ELSE’S AMERICAN STORY TOO. OUR THANKS TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS AND ALL OF YOU WHO WATCHED. PLEASE JOIN US EVERY WEEKEND ON "MATTER OF FACT," WHERE WE ALWAYS HAVE CONVERSATIONS AS DIVERSE AS AMERICA. I’M SOLEDAD O’BRIEN, FOR ALL OF US WITH THE LISTENING TOUR, GOOD NIGHT. >> ALL OF THESE INTERVIEWS, AND SOME YOU DIDN’T SEE, ARE POSTED ON OUR WEBSITE, MATTEROFFACT DOT -- MATTEROFFACT.TV. WE’LL BE BACK IN THE COMING MONTHS WITH ANOTHER LISTENING TOUR. SO, IF YOU HAVE SUGGESTIONS FOR TOPICS, SEND THEM TO OUR MATTER OF FACT FACEBOOK PAGE.
WATCH: Matter of Fact Listening Tour: 'To Be An American'
Soledad O’Brien Hosts 'To Be an American: Identity, Race and Justice'
The "Matter of Fact Listening Tour," hosted by Soledad O'Brien, continues its exploration of difficult issues surrounding race and equity in, "To Be An American: Identity, Race And Justice."Watch the special presentation in the player at the top of this page.Throughout the 90-minute program, a diverse lineup of guests from academia, literature and entertainment shared personal stories, essays and insights to bring greater understanding to the complex topic of race, identity and belonging. "Matter of Fact" contributors Jessica Gomez and Joie Chen provided reports and interviews from around the country, while veteran journalist Ray Suarez chronicled the history of Chinese Americans who helped build U.S. railroads but were denied citizenship.Guests include: Dr. Ray Block, Jr., Penn State Associate Professor of Political Science and African American StudiesGina Brillon, the Bronx-born comedian, winner of NBC’s Stand up for Diversity contest Lydia X. Z. Brown, disability justice advocate, organizer, educator, attorney, strategist, writer and White House honoree Raj Chetty, Harvard University William A. Ackman Professor of Public Economics and Director of Opportunity Insights, which uses data to identify barriers to economic opportunityStefanie DeLuca, James Coleman Professor of Sociology and Social Policy at Johns Hopkins University and co-author of Coming of Age in the Other AmericaEric Foner, Columbia University DeWitt Clinton Professor Emeritus of History, specializing in the Civil War and reconstruction, slavery and 19th century AmericaAnnette Gordon-Reed, Carl M. Loeb University Professor at Harvard University and recipient of sixteen book prizes, including the 2009 Pulitzer Prize in History Nikole Hannah-Jones, Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporter and creator of the 1619 ProjectShaka King, acclaimed filmmaker and director of the Warner Bros. motion picture Judas and the Black MessiahKaren Korematsu, Founder and Executive Director of the Fred T. Korematsu InstituteDr. Lilliana Mason, University of Maryland, College Park, Associate Professor of Government and Politics, author of Uncivil Agreement: How Politics Became Our IdentityNikki Pitre, Executive Director of the Center for Native American Youth at the Aspen InstituteIlyasah Shabazz, educator, activist, author and daughter of civil rights leader Malcolm XJose Antonio Vargas, journalist, filmmaker, immigration rights activist and author Edgar Villanueva, Principal, Decolonizing Wealth Project and Liberated Capital; author of Decolonizing WealthBruce Western, Bryce Professor of Sociology and Co-Director of the Justice Lab at Columbia UniversityValerie Rawlston Wilson, Director of the Economic Policy Institute’s Program on Race, Ethnicity and the Economy
The "Matter of Fact Listening Tour," hosted by Soledad O'Brien, continues its exploration of difficult issues surrounding race and equity in, "To Be An American: Identity, Race And Justice."
Watch the special presentation in the player at the top of this page.
Throughout the 90-minute program, a diverse lineup of guests from academia, literature and entertainment shared personal stories, essays and insights to bring greater understanding to the complex topic of race, identity and belonging. "Matter of Fact" contributors Jessica Gomez and Joie Chen provided reports and interviews from around the country, while veteran journalist Ray Suarez chronicled the history of Chinese Americans who helped build U.S. railroads but were denied citizenship.
Guests include:
- Dr. Ray Block, Jr., Penn State Associate Professor of Political Science and African American Studies
- Gina Brillon, the Bronx-born comedian, winner of NBC’s Stand up for Diversity contest
- Lydia X. Z. Brown, disability justice advocate, organizer, educator, attorney, strategist, writer and White House honoree
- Raj Chetty, Harvard University William A. Ackman Professor of Public Economics and Director of Opportunity Insights, which uses data to identify barriers to economic opportunity
- Stefanie DeLuca, James Coleman Professor of Sociology and Social Policy at Johns Hopkins University and co-author of Coming of Age in the Other America
- Eric Foner, Columbia University DeWitt Clinton Professor Emeritus of History, specializing in the Civil War and reconstruction, slavery and 19th century America
- Annette Gordon-Reed, Carl M. Loeb University Professor at Harvard University and recipient of sixteen book prizes, including the 2009 Pulitzer Prize in History
- Nikole Hannah-Jones, Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporter and creator of the 1619 Project
- Shaka King, acclaimed filmmaker and director of the Warner Bros. motion picture Judas and the Black Messiah
- Karen Korematsu, Founder and Executive Director of the Fred T. Korematsu Institute
- Dr. Lilliana Mason, University of Maryland, College Park, Associate Professor of Government and Politics, author of Uncivil Agreement: How Politics Became Our Identity
- Nikki Pitre, Executive Director of the Center for Native American Youth at the Aspen Institute
- Ilyasah Shabazz, educator, activist, author and daughter of civil rights leader Malcolm X
- Jose Antonio Vargas, journalist, filmmaker, immigration rights activist and author
- Edgar Villanueva, Principal, Decolonizing Wealth Project and Liberated Capital; author of Decolonizing Wealth
- Bruce Western, Bryce Professor of Sociology and Co-Director of the Justice Lab at Columbia University
- Valerie Rawlston Wilson, Director of the Economic Policy Institute’s Program on Race, Ethnicity and the Economy